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Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby dj2loud » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:52 pm

Well i'm not purchasing anything until i know for sure what dates we are going to be able to fish up north... i'm in whatcom county just west of mount baker, for me to fish the Skook or any other tribs its at least 3+ hrs south for a drive..... Looking forward to the shows this week......

And looking on line at the WDFW site the prices are the same as last years!
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Toni » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm

Larry3215 wrote:So no fee increases after all? Guess they heard the roar!

I think they couldn't get the Legislative people to get it raised in a timely manner.
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Bay wolf » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:06 pm

Good for you! I really hope everyone takes a wait and see attitude. Yes, the fee increase has been proposed and needs to be approved. Nows the time to say NOT until we see what we are getting!
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Toni » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:49 pm

WOW. King tv just had a piece on the tribal negotiations open to the public with 2 commercials saying they think this movement is bad. It should be government to government. One said we have come a long away with the tribes.
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Toni » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:18 pm

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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Bay wolf » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:48 pm

We have many small family run commercial fishermen who've signed the petition. Many understand the point that Tim Hamilton makes that the issue is not Commercials vs Recreational's. The issue is over harvest and unaccountability in our fisheries and dirty deals are done, for the most part without the public having any knowledge of them.

Amazing that these couple of Commercial fishermen say the Tribes have a RIGHT to fish and WE are privileged. The resource belongs to ALL citizens of Washington State, and WE have a right and a responsibility to insure the resource is being protected to benefit ALL STAKEHOLDERS! Why do these guys think WE, the CITIZENS of Washington state are subject to the Tribes approval to oversee our resources. Surly, they don't think the Tribes OWN all the fish and allow us to take a few out of the goodness of their hearts?

I get it. Their scared... They fear the tribes power and their ability to shut down our season by simply walking out of the NOF negotiations. But it brings us right back to the issue. THE MEETINGS MUST BE OPEN or we will forever be held hostage to just such fear! Commercials and Rec's need to stay united through the pain of "Chaos". Only then will we see a better future.
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Onmygame » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:40 am

Bay wolf wrote:We have many small family run commercial fishermen who've signed the petition. Many understand the point that Tim Hamilton makes that the issue is not Commercials vs Recreational's. The issue is over harvest and unaccountability in our fisheries and dirty deals are done, for the most part without the public having any knowledge of them.

Amazing that these couple of Commercial fishermen say the Tribes have a RIGHT to fish and WE are privileged. The resource belongs to ALL citizens of Washington State, and WE have a right and a responsibility to insure the resource is being protected to benefit ALL STAKEHOLDERS! Why do these guys think WE, the CITIZENS of Washington state are subject to the Tribes approval to oversee our resources. Surly, they don't think the Tribes OWN all the fish and allow us to take a few out of the goodness of their hearts?

I get it. Their scared... They fear the tribes power and their ability to shut down our season by simply walking out of the NOF negotiations. But it brings us right back to the issue. THE MEETINGS MUST BE OPEN or we will forever be held hostage to just such fear! Commercials and Rec's need to stay united through the pain of "Chaos". Only then will we see a better future.


Well, it seems those fellas know their history.

Coastal tribes were fishing for salmon commercially long before the white settlers arrived - selling to Hudsons Bay Co and trading to other out of area tribes. Coastal tribes of the NW were the richest in the country before we came along.

Many years later, when the Federal Government pushed to move all tribes onto designated reservations, the coastal tribes reluctantly agreed - PROVIDED - and it was their ONE CAVEAT - that they be allowed to 'KEEP THE FISH and continue to hunt'. The government agreed, and PUT IT IN THE TREATY.

After 120 or so years Post Treaty of being at the short end of the stick, having access cut off, the fish populations depleted by non tribal entities, and having their rights to this resource constantly questioned by the Territorial and subsequent State governments, the issue was moved to Federal Court where the Boldt Decision was handed down in 1974.

WE - the non tribal fishermen, both sport and commercial - were essentially given 50% of the fish in the Boldt Decision - NOT THEM. They ALREADY OWNED the resource per the Medicine Creek Treaty of 1854. And just like that - they were 'allowed to keep 50%' - which means half of their resource was taken away - a resource promised to them in writing by the federal govt 120 years prior.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -
When I was was younger, and completely oblivious to the factual history of this issue I used to get upset that half of the fish were going to a relatively small group of people. Now that I am aware of the things that have taken place, the promises made, promises broken and the things taken away - I am embarrassed for myself.
When I see or hear someone who is clearly in the dark about the history whining about 'our share' or 'our rights' being violated on this issue, I am embarrassed for THEM.

Lucky for us, the tribes have over 50 hatcheries in this state up and running that focus on salmon and steelhead. Further, they have invested millions of dollars in these resources and are trying to bring back runs that disappeared decades ago.

I see them as partners in re-establishing the resource, NOT adversaries.

It is what they are.

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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Larry3215 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:50 am

Thanks for the reminder. I had forgotten or blanked out on most of that history and didnt remember the dates on any of it.

Those are telling points.

Im not completely convinced the tribes are blameless in this, and I still think we need to have the negotiations open, but your reminder does put a very different spin on things. The loss of fish over time is a bad situation thats not going to be easy to work through.
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby riverhunter » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:04 pm

Onmygame wrote:
Bay wolf wrote:We have many small family run commercial fishermen who've signed the petition. Many understand the point that Tim Hamilton makes that the issue is not Commercials vs Recreational's. The issue is over harvest and unaccountability in our fisheries and dirty deals are done, for the most part without the public having any knowledge of them.

Amazing that these couple of Commercial fishermen say the Tribes have a RIGHT to fish and WE are privileged. The resource belongs to ALL citizens of Washington State, and WE have a right and a responsibility to insure the resource is being protected to benefit ALL STAKEHOLDERS! Why do these guys think WE, the CITIZENS of Washington state are subject to the Tribes approval to oversee our resources. Surly, they don't think the Tribes OWN all the fish and allow us to take a few out of the goodness of their hearts?

I get it. Their scared... They fear the tribes power and their ability to shut down our season by simply walking out of the NOF negotiations. But it brings us right back to the issue. THE MEETINGS MUST BE OPEN or we will forever be held hostage to just such fear! Commercials and Rec's need to stay united through the pain of "Chaos". Only then will we see a better future.


Well, it seems those fellas know their history.

Coastal tribes were fishing for salmon commercially long before the white settlers arrived - selling to Hudsons Bay Co and trading to other out of area tribes. Coastal tribes of the NW were the richest in the country before we came along.

Many years later, when the Federal Government pushed to move all tribes onto designated reservations, the coastal tribes reluctantly agreed - PROVIDED - and it was their ONE CAVEAT - that they be allowed to 'KEEP THE FISH and continue to hunt'. The government agreed, and PUT IT IN THE TREATY.

After 120 or so years Post Treaty of being at the short end of the stick, having access cut off, the fish populations depleted by non tribal entities, and having their rights to this resource constantly questioned by the Territorial and subsequent State governments, the issue was moved to Federal Court where the Boldt Decision was handed down in 1974.

WE - the non tribal fishermen, both sport and commercial - were essentially given 50% of the fish in the Boldt Decision - NOT THEM. They ALREADY OWNED the resource per the Medicine Creek Treaty of 1854. And just like that - they were 'allowed to keep 50%' - which means half of their resource was taken away - a resource promised to them in writing by the federal govt 120 years prior.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -
When I was was younger, and completely oblivious to the factual history of this issue I used to get upset that half of the fish were going to a relatively small group of people. Now that I am aware of the things that have taken place, the promises made, promises broken and the things taken away - I am embarrassed for myself.
When I see or hear someone who is clearly in the dark about the history whining about 'our share' or 'our rights' being violated on this issue, I am embarrassed for THEM.

Lucky for us, the tribes have over 50 hatcheries in this state up and running that focus on salmon and steelhead. Further, they have invested millions of dollars in these resources and are trying to bring back runs that disappeared decades ago.

I see them as partners in re-establishing the resource, NOT adversaries.

It is what they are.

onmygame

Glad someone mentioned this finally as I myself am not oppose to tribal fishing. That I read it is that 50% is not that many fish when we think that this number is only 50% of harvestable fish not 50% of the run size of fish. Once again this is how I read it. Example if the run size is expected to be 25000 that usually means that about 25% of that run is harvestable that equates to 6250 harvestable fish giving the tribes about 3125 fish to catch for a particular run and 3125 for recreational and commercial guys. However I do agree that we need open meetings I also believe we need to take out commercial fishing out of the picture all together if we want the runs to get better and that goes for tribal and non tribal. The problem that I have with the tribes is they claim that the netting takes place as a right of their heritage but I'm sure that their ancestors didn't use metal boats with gillnets to catch their fish. They were doing it for sustinence as most of us recreational fisherman are doing it for well at least I know that's why I fish. Anyways what I am trying to say is that commercial fishing is the true problem whether tribal or non tribal. The fish shouldn't be considered a paycheck by no-one and instead treated with more respect then that. We need to insure the tribes change their mindset to fish for sustinence rather then for a paycheck but until we take out the commercial fleet, again tribal and non tribal, their will be special interest in these fish for profit. These are just my opinions and simply that my opinions you don't have to agree but I felt like I needed to speak my voice out.
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Bay wolf » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:03 pm

If I may re-focus for a moment.

The petition is very specific in it's goal.

It is to allow public oversight in the Tribal/WDFW negotiations.

We are not even necessarily asking to have people physically IN THE ROOM. Even a live video feed might work.

As it stands now, the Co-managers are opposed to ANY TYPE of method for the public to see what is going on in these meetings. Not a neutral person, not a video feed, not an audio recording, nothing. The Commission and WDFW Director have voiced that transparency is a good thing and is necessary to keep both sides honest.

The fish are a resource which is jointly managed by the Tribes and the Citizens of the State. As such, no single entity can (should) prohibit the other from allowing it's stakeholder from knowing how that resource is being managed.

I hope that we do not become fragmented and start infighting over issues that are not addressed in this petition.

We have gained an awful lot through solidarity so far. We must stay strong.

We have many commercial fishermen included in our group who've signed on to support transparency and have commented on how important they feel transparency in our fisheries is for their industry.
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Bay wolf » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:47 pm

UPDATE FROM DAY 1 AT THE SPORTSMEN SHOW

Greg and I spent the day (12 till 8) walking the floor and speaking to people and asking them to sign the petition.

SO, with just Greg and I we got 75 signed petitions. We also passed out a lot of flyers so more may sign on line.

WE COULD OF DONE A LOT BETTER, BUT WITH JUST THE TWO OF US IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SPEAK TO MORE THAN THAT!

WE STILL HAVE TOMORROW, FRIDAY, SATURDAY AND SUNDAY!

IF YOU BELIEVE IN THIS. IF YOU REALLY THINK WE ARE DOING SOMETHING GOOD HERE, WE NEED YOUR HELP!

THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO CAN BE REACHED, BUT GREG AND I CANNOT DO IT ALONE.


WE HAVE SOME FLYERS THAT WE PAID FOR OUT OF OUR POCKET TO HAND OUT. IF YOU CAN HELP, YOU CAN MEET UP WITH US AND WE CAN GET SOME FOR YOU. IF YOU CAN, PRINT SOME OUT AND MEET UP WITH US. WE WILL BE IN THE SHOWPLEX AREA. (The big bldg. with the Northwest Fishing Reports booth and the food court) JUST LOOK FOR THE GUYS PASSING OUT FLYERS AND LET US KNOW YOUR HERE TO HELP.
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Bay wolf » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:13 pm

JUST WENT OVER 2,111 SIGNATURES WITH ON-LINE AND PAPER COMBINED!
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Mike Carey » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:53 am

congrats! We have more petitions at the NWFR booth #357, feel free to come by and grab some.
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Larry3215 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:08 am

It looks like the NOF process/meetings isnt scheduled to finish until early April and its going to take WDFW a while to set the seasons after that.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/northfalcon/

That means our licenses expire before we know whats going to be available to fish. I hate that.
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Toni » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:31 am

Thank you Perry and your daughter for starting this!
You have put in a lot of $ and time to help us all show them we are not happy.

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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Toni » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:37 am

Toni wrote:Thank you Perry and your daughter for starting this!
You have put in a lot of $ and time to help us all show them we are not happy.

I will not buy my saltwater license until after NOF is set. If we can all do this...
what you may not know is that $10 of the that saltwater license goes to puget sound salmon enhancement that is suppose to give us more salmon. It is run by WDFW. That may tell them something as well.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/advisory/psrfef/

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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby riverhunter » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:31 pm

Larry3215 wrote:It looks like the NOF process/meetings isnt scheduled to finish until early April and its going to take WDFW a while to set the seasons after that.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fishing/northfalcon/

That means our licenses expire before we know whats going to be available to fish. I hate that.

It's always been that way. That is why the rule books used to be until the end of may and now the rule book go as far as June 30th. So either way we have to wait until new rule books to be finalized to really what we get to fish for. I know its dumb but it has always been this way.
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Larry3215 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:05 pm

I thought they were going to align the licenses with the rule book seasons. Its really annoying having them out of sync. Feels like they are trying to sucker us in.
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby Mike Carey » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:43 pm

Hey, I want to give a shout out to Perry and the volunteers that worked the crowds during the Puyallup Sportsman's Show. They were very professional and incredibly dedicated.

No matter what side of the issue you fall on, I personally really respect that they didn't just whine and moan but rather they took action and did something. In this age of internet negativity and hate it's inspiring to see guys taking positive action for a cause they believe in. And no riots, blocking traffic, or other divisive behavior.

Cudos to you! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Re: Petition for Open WDFW/Tribal NOF Meetings

Postby riverhunter » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:20 pm

Larry3215 wrote:I thought they were going to align the licenses with the rule book seasons. Its really annoying having them out of sync. Feels like they are trying to sucker us in.

I really hope they would do that
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