Fly Fishing Only Lakes

[shawn]

Mallard83 are freaking serious blame the tree hugging flyfisherman,you know if you don't like the way things are go find the small precentage of people who think like you do and to WDFW and have the rules changed and until you take an active stance on your beliefs and oppions.Try to keep your half insultives oppions to yourself.Because all the guys I flyfish with are defenitley not bark munching tree huggers.The majority of them union members and war vetrans,or the regular working stiff that has found a more productive ways to channel themselves,without sitting behind a computer and ranting on something they know nothing about.Tight Lines

[littleriver]

Some interesting posts on this thread since last I visited. I love mallard's "bark muncher" line. That's hillarious.

Rooscooter adds some very interesting and relevant information. My response to his questions about "participation" are simply that "opportunity = participation" and by dropping the limits and switching to fly fishing only or selective fishery regs of some lakes that you increase "opporunity". I'm sure the bean counters at wdfw have some very accurate and sophisticated methodologies to measure participation and I'm also sure that these will never be made available to the public but it's easy to qualitatively observe participation just by noting how many cars are in the parking lot when the general perception is that there are fish to catch in a lake and how many cars are there when the general perception is that there are no fish to catch in the lake.


Participants don't buy fishing licenses because of the fish they caught last year they purchase them and all the gear to go along with because they are anticipating catching more this year.

I'm disappointed that Mr. Magler hasn't expanded his arguments because this thread does a nice job of highlighting the very diverse nature of the sport fishing community. Every person who purchases a sport fishing license seems to have a little different reason and motivation for doing so. This is why we have never been able to organize very effectively as a political force and because of this a relatively small number of highly organized and highly political special interests (e.g. tribal and non-tribal commercial fishermen) have power and influence over fishery decisions that is totally out of whack with their numbers.

[jmay]

Oh this thread has really pissed me off until I realized I am a bark muncher, last weekend I stacked firewood that I cut with my Sthil 036.

However I pondered our hunting seasons, we have modern, muzzleloader, and archery seasons. I muzzleload elk, that season is longer and allows the killing of cows and spikes in many areas that modern firearm hunters don't have. Why, its simple, the success rates.

Its much harder to get with in 50 yards of a elk with a 54cal plains rifle vs 300 yards with a 300 Win mag. Same holds true with tackle vs flyfishing water. If the state needs to limit harvest of an area they make the means harder. Think of tackle as the 300 Win mag with a 3x9 scope and us flyfisher as the guy with the smokepole, why has the better chance of filling his tag?

[gpc]

Ahh Mr. Manglers question has finally been answered. Jmay has 2 pretty good responses that answer his question even though I dont like the idea of the first one, but I could see the state doing that to make it easier on the wardens. The only thing that bothers me is not too many of the fly fisherman even cared to answer the question until they were offended. It was like they saw a non-fly fisherman ask a question and just disregarded it. So maybe Mallard83s response does have some truth to it. But both groups know the fly fisherman would go nuts if there were lakes that didnt allow fly fishing. This will probably never happen, but hey thats politics.

[mallard83]

You guys are to easy to get a rise out of. I am by no means refering to any of you in particular I am refering to the majority of fly guys that I have come across while out fishing. I have very rarely had a good experience while running into a fly fisherman on the water. It just seems to me that every time I am out fishing and a fly fisherman comes along he just does not care about my space and when I try to make conversation they are jerks. All of you may be the good half I haven't met yet, I am just tired of being looked down upon by the elitist fly fisherman. And think of it this way, what if there were lakes that the state said you are not allowed to fly fish at. Doesn't sound to appealing does it. I am not saying that there should be bait allowed at your "privet" lakes, but I believe that they should just be single barbless and catch and release. And just so you guys know, I to enjoy to fly fish, I just believe there should be equal opportunity for everyone. And as far as me writing my congressman, that would be pointless. I am sure all of you know how that goes already, another letter destined for the recycle bin, been there done that. So all of you can just settle down now, I was just venting about the fly fisherman I have met, NOT YOU.

[jmay]

Mallard, I just figured out the problem your living in Kirkland. I have steelheaded on the coast, and yes there are many...many jack@sses on western washington rivers. They are not flyfisherman, they are Yuppie Imports who are fishing because they saw it in a Robert Redford movie, and dropped 10g at the Bellevue Orvis, drive SUV's that have never been in 4 wheel drive.

I don't think anyone on this site in in that group. Those at the pompus jerks that have $500 waders with no holes in them, are making a fashion statement and couldn't catch a fish at a grocery store. Next time you talk to a flyfisher, look for a guy in a flannel shirt and an american pickup who actually catches fish and chances are they are going to be down to earth.

One thing most real flyfisherman are is reserved on who they tell what too, thats not because we are Aholes, but because we have spend hours or years figureing out a section of water.

[zen leecher aka Bill W]

Watch out. I flyfish, live in Kirkland and shop at Kaufman's too.

Now about them juvenile only ponds. I want to be able to fish those.

My doctor would prefer I munch more bark and less steak.


oops..just realized my 2006 truck hasn't been in the dirt yet.

[Marc Martyn]

Mallard, I think I know who you are referring to when you say "flyfishing elitest"....clubs.
I have been flyfishing for over 40 years and have come across just about every kind of fly fisherman there is.
Fly fishing clubs do a lot of good deeds for many lakes and streams throughout the country. Many of the members are very nice people and take a great interest in the "science" of the sport, entomology, conservation and water quality.
However, being a member of a club, many times there is a tendency to "out do" another member and try to move up the pecking order of the organization. Also they have a tendency to try to impress other members of the club by the expensive equipment they have or the fantastic fishing trips that they have gone on. Many identify insects by the scientific names instead of the common names. In doing all this, they do get an elitest attitude. Many take on on a attitude that they are in an elite group. Also, many clubs "target" hatches. By that I mean that during the mayfly hatch at say, Chapoka Lake, hundreds of club members will flock to a lake for the hatch. I was on Lenore one time when a couple of clubs from the west side were there. I tried to make casual conversion with them, but since I was not in the group, they had very little interest in talking with me. While fishing the same cove as several of them, I overheard their conversations. They were going on about all the flies they tried and the ones that weren't worth fishing. One guy said that the Zug Bug was worthless on that lake. I was catching fish on a regular basis and the club members around me weren't. One guy out of frustration asked me what I was using. I told him a Zug Bug and the whole group got real quiet. They just didn't know how to present the fly.
Jmay has a very good point. Look for the guy with the sweat stained hat, faded fly vest without all the fancy "toys" hanging off of it and offers a greeting when he sees you.
Last, I would like to say that all of my very close friends I have met on the water of area lakes fly fishing. They are the kindest, most polite and caring individuals I have ever met. There is a teacher, an architectural engineer, a tire store manager and a retired appliance salesman. They all care greatly about the preservation of our lakes and streams and educate themselves on this subject.
Mallard, please don't pigeon hole people that love a peaceful productive sport. I don't hug trees, chew bark nor do I associate with people on a lake that are trying to impress me.

[raffensg64]

Glad to see you toned it down some Mallard83, but the damage has been done by your original post. You came across to me, and most likely several others, as a crude and thoughtless jerk. Too late....you already showed your a**.

I also noticed a post of yours under the "Greatest Fighting Fish, pound for pound", where you became upset that others did not align themselves with your line of thinking, ie lots of folks picking small mouth bass over salmon or steelhead. SO. It's an open forum where lots of different folks, with different backgrounds, quite simply offered their input. You'll be alright....don't be so thin-skinned.

Additionally, I don't get "wrapped around the axle" with top-end, elitist fly fisherman like you do. They don't sign my paycheck and never will! I don't care if they don't want to talk to me or if their gear cost five times as much. Good for them, they evidently have/had jobs or careers that allow them to get $1000 rods, waders and pontoon boats with all the bells and whistles. What they do is quite simply none of my business and I don't rant and rave about it. I've got a few kind, thoughtful, level-headed partners whom I thoroughly enjoy fishing with so I don't have to concern myself with others.

And oh, by the way, about me telling you to call or write your congressman.....sorry I didn't elaborate. I was not implying that you attempt to get the regs changed. I was implying that you cry and whine to them because the rest of us don't care to listen to your gas!

[mallard83]

Glad to see you toned it down some Mallard83, but the damage has been done by your original post. You came across to me, and most likely several others, as a crude and thoughtless jerk. Too late....you already showed your a**.

I also noticed a post of yours under the "Greatest Fighting Fish, pound for pound", where you became upset that others did not align themselves with your line of thinking, ie lots of folks picking small mouth bass over salmon or steelhead. SO. It's an open forum where lots of different folks, with different backgrounds, quite simply offered their input. You'll be alright....don't be so thin-skinned.

Additionally, I don't get "wrapped around the axle" with top-end, elitist fly fisherman like you do. They don't sign my paycheck and never will! I don't care if they don't want to talk to me or if their gear cost five times as much. Good for them, they evidently have/had jobs or careers that allow them to get $1000 rods, waders and pontoon boats with all the bells and whistles. What they do is quite simply none of my business and I don't rant and rave about it. I've got a few kind, thoughtful, level-headed partners whom I thoroughly enjoy fishing with so I don't have to concern myself with others.

And oh, by the way, about me telling you to call or write your congressman.....sorry I didn't elaborate. I was not implying that you attempt to get the regs changed. I was implying that you cry and whine to them because the rest of us don't care to listen to your gas!

The damage has been done you say, I don't care. I was just stating my opinion on the subject and in my last post you may have thought that I was apologizing, well I wasn't. The fact of the matter is I will never apologize for my opinions, that is who I am. And yes I already know that I am an a**, get in line to tell me, you might be waiting awhile. And about you refering to my post on the greatest fighting fish, you state yourself that it is an open forum where people can voice their opinions. Well I have some mind blowing news for you, that is what I was doing, stating my opinion. And the fact that you say not to be so thin skinned contradicts what all of you are doing after my original post on this subject. "Wrapped around the axle", that is very cute and laughable. I only get so called "wrapped around the axle" when someone gets to close while out fishing or if they don't respect me and others around. And I find it funny that you say I should cry and whine to my congressman because you guys don't care to hear my "gas". Well how about you look back and see how many of you listened to my "gas". So in closing I am not a mindless drone like some others and follow the crowd. I, like you, have opinions of my own. I don't speak what I am told, I speak what I know and that is it, so if you or the rest can't accept that well thats to bad. Now that we have gotten so far off track I think it is time to get back to the original subject, unless you guys want to keep crying about a guys opinion that you don't even know. Well if that is the case then so be it, have fun. Opinions differ deal with it.

[zen leecher aka Bill W]

Next time you "voice" your opinion, consider in the future if you want to be ignored or have your opinion listened to. Look at the bigger picture.

[mallard83]

Yup, still whining thats what I figured.

[gpc]

I think Mark Martyn is right on the money. There are some flyfisherman who are good guys and there are others who are complete jack@sses like Jmay said. I also think that after reading the comments posted in this topic we can clearly tell who are the good guys and who are the stuck up jack@asses, who cant catch a fish at the grocery store. P.S. not referring to either of the names I just mentioned, or my buds.

FISH ON

[Rooscooter]

There has been a lot of activity in this thread since I last checked. The original topic/argument seems to be lost is the adolescent arguments of a couple of people that seem to care more about the perceived "group" they belong to rather than debating the reason for "fly fishing only" waters.

The issue seems to be one (at least the original post) questioning the benefit of restricting lakes to one particular use of tackle. My first post explained some first hand experience on some heavily pressured waters in southern Idaho. I'm not sure anyone noticed that the real reason my club pushed for the restrictions wasn't to "reserve" a lake for "ourselves", but to make the regulations that were going to help keep a lake from being fished dry be easily enforceable. I have no insight into why Washington differentiates the regulations from selective gear to fly fishing only.

The State regulates waters to ensure access to fishing. The regulations tend to "grow" each year as with all other things associated with government. In the end, enforcing the regulations is what ensures the goal, not the regulations themselves. If fly fishing only lakes help Wardens to ensure that bait isn't used then I would ask why have restricted gear lakes that aren't fly fishing only? The goal of the regulations is to restrict the fish take/kill due to the size or pressure the lake receives.

As a fisherman that uses a fly rod most of the time these days, I couldn't care less what the lake is designated in the rule book as long as it is open. I don't keep trout and don't use hooks with barbs. Incidentally, I'm not sure I have ever fished a "fly fishing only" lake in Washington. I'm in Spokane and I think the closest one is 60 miles away at least. I usually don't have the time to go that far.

Mark, you and I met at Amber a few months ago and we had a discussion about this very issue. One thing I found curious about your last post is that when we met you used several "scientific insect" references and you were carrying a Sage rod. I guess you are in the elitist category with the rest of us fly fishermen. : )

Finally, I seem to be one of the ones targeted in some posts as the elitist or jack@ass (at least gpc didn't relieve me of that designation in his latest post) because I was a member of a fly fishing club that was active in this regard. I would add to what Mark Martyn asserted about fly fisherman and expand it to all fishermen. This tread is evidence of that fact.

[Marc Martyn]

Rooscooter-
I anticipated a comment from a member of a fly fishing club. The scientific insects names that I implied in my post are names such as Hexagenia recurvata (Green Drake)mayfly, Sympetrum ribicundulum (Red Dragonfly Nymph) etc. And no, I don't have these memorized, I had to look them up.o:)
I may have used the term chironomid in the conversation, but that is about the only scientific term that I usually use. My Sage is the entry level "Launch" which serves my needs nicely. Most fly casters that have been fishing for many years, graduate to a rod like a Sage or Loomis.
Browns Lake is the closest "fly fishing only" lake in the Spokane area. You should take the time to fish it. One of the area clubs, perhaps yours, did some nice stream rehabilitation in the inlet stream some years back.
Elitest....hardly. A lot of clubs have a member invitation policy. Unless that has changed, you can't just call them up and join. You have to be invited to join by a club member. You then become an elite member of the club.
Finally, "Fly Fishing Only" lakes are set aside for the preservation of that designated lake. There are very few in that category. And yes, there are lakes that fly fisherman in their float tubes and canoes can't fish on. Those are the lakes with the drunks racing around on jet skiis and jet boats. Besides, I enjoy going to a lake where the shoreline is not littered with beer bottles, empty worm containers and monofiliment line strung all over the place.

[gpc]

Now Rooscooter, dont get upset. I also said my buds. I was referring to people that I talk to. On June 13th, I asked you about the tiger trout in crab creek. You were more than happy to help me out and give me some tips on how to find and catch them, so this in turn makes you my buddy. So no, you were not the person that I was referring to in my last post.

[mallard83]

Most of you guys did not understand what I meant by when I said elitist fly fisherman. I am not refering to club members who actually do our great outdoors a true service with all of the various improvements to our waters, I am refering to most NOT all of the fly fishrman I have came across on this side of the mountains. Again just so you guys stop crying about it I say most NOT all I have come across, so it is not necessarily directed towards you, unless you want to keep whining than it is. I think the problem might lie in the fact that most of the people that I run into on this side of the hill that throw flies have a lot of money and think they are better than the everyday average fisherman. Again I say most NOT all fly fisherman that I have met. So anyway I feel that I should rewrite my OPINION on the subject since the only feedback I got from my original post was everyones complaints about how I feel about fly guys I have met. So anyway, I feel that fly fishing only lakes should be changed to single barbless no bait catch and release rules. I feel this way because I don't think it is necessarily fair to say that if you don't fly fish than you can't fish a particular piece of water. Honestly put the shoe on the other foot. And I really don't see how this would hurt the fishing in these lakes at all. So if you guys want to post a normal non whiny response to my OPINION than please do, but if not it will only justify my claim.

[littleriver]

I think mallard and Mr. Magler have both made legitimate comments about some flyfishermen being elitist and annoying to be around. I've flyfished some of our state's flyfishing only lakes and most of the "selective fishery" lakes over the years and I've come across some of these "elitist" types also.

They can be annoying for sure but i still support policies that give them their private and exclusive waters to fish as long as I can justify in my mind that these policies expand overall sport fishing participation.


Maybe the argument we need to be using with mallard and magler is as follows.


If we create a few lakes where only the elitists are allowed to fish, maybe they will spend all their time there and you won't have to deal with them on the lakes you choose to fish.

we can call it the "Separation that leads to less exasperation" policy..

[Derrick-k]

If we can have fly fishing only lakes shouldn't we have bait fishing only lakes where normal fishermen like me can have a place to get away from the elitest fly fishermen?

[mallard83]

I think mallard and Mr. Magler have both made legitimate comments about some flyfishermen being elitist and annoying to be around. I've flyfished some of our state's flyfishing only lakes and most of the "selective fishery" lakes over the years and I've come across some of these "elitist" types also.

They can be annoying for sure but i still support policies that give them their private and exclusive waters to fish as long as I can justify in my mind that these policies expand overall sport fishing participation.


Maybe the argument we need to be using with mallard and magler is as follows.


If we create a few lakes where only the elitists are allowed to fish, maybe they will spend all their time there and you won't have to deal with them on the lakes you choose to fish.

we can call it the "Separation that leads to less exasperation" policy..

That would be nice, because all I am looking for is like minded fisherman (fly fisherman or not) to be able to fish the same quality waters. I just don't like being looked down upon is all.