Windmills!!

[littleriver]

Man. I can't believe all the windmills going up around this state. Walla Walla, Goldendale, the Horseheavens, and Colockum.

Did some fishing on Umatilla Lake this summer and got some pictures of a huge farm in the horse heavens just east of goldendale. I watched the trucks with the big blades driving moving down the highway and up to the farm and the construction crews were active on the hills. About a week or so after I returned I heard a little blurb on the local radio station that a goldendale man had been killed when one of the wind towers fell on him during construction. With that little bit of news I found out that wind power is already more deadly than nuclear power. Went over to eastern washington last weekend and drove back via Quincy. There's huge wind farm up around the "Whiskey Dick" in the Colockum. You can see it from the road that runs south from Quincy to George.

When you put up windmills in the horse heavens I can sit back and just call it stupid, but when you put them in the colockum it gets more personal. I mean I have some history there. Done a lot of elk hunting and chuckar hunting and quail hunting in them thar hills and it's really sad to lose that resource. It might not be so bad if these things actually produced a little power, but all the tubines all together crank out about .0000000001 percent of our energy needs in this state. And the price ain't all that reasonable either. According to a power planner I know in the Douglas County area wind power is being charged at 7.5 cents per kilowatt hour wholesale. That's more than most of us pay retail. Nothing but a big expensive, noisy, landscape defacing, elk hunting area depleting eco-scam as far as I'm concerned.

Even worse, Puget Sound Energy comes out with a press release today bragging that they are committed to finding new sources of energy because they need to plan for about a million new customers over the next couple of decades. The are committed to new sources but coal and nuclear are out of the question. What a bunch of morons. If you know anyone who works for PSE please have them sign up to this forum and join this debate it would be fun to educate one or more of them about the science of energy.

But help is on the way. The Governor of idaho came out with a major press release last week saying that he is committed to and totally favors Nuclear Power. Along with the release came the announcement that there are about 3 dozen companies in this country that have applied for permits this year to build roughly 70 new nuclear plants. One of these will go along the shores of the snake river in southern idaho. I think that "one" is just a start. The reason the Governor of Idaho made this announcement is because his advisors have explained to him how energy science challenged all the utilities and citizens of Washington, Oregon, and California are and that they have a real opportunity to "cash in". What the governor's advisors told him was that even though wind power is an expensive joke that the utilities and their customers are totally blinded by environmental ideology and that these states will never build the energy resources they need to satisfy their demand. This is a great opportunity for idaho. Just put up a bunch of nuclear plants , use INEL for reprocessing (INEL already handles all the fuel reprocessing for the nuclear navy), and go crazy with distribution lines. Exporting electrical energy will be a huge revenue center creating government surpluses and lots of high paying jobs for decades to come.

Only down side will be that we dummies in Washington and Oregon and California will be paying a lot more for our electicity than we would have if we had built the generating facilities closer to home.

Anyways the bottom line is this. Puget Sound Power says that Nuclear is out of the question, but just watch. Once those nuke plants are operating in Idaho they'll be buying it along with all the other Washington Utilities. Lots of talk coming from the Puget Sound Power people but it's all "silly talk".

[iPodrodder]

bassackwards works for PSE. Grill him.

[littleriver]

Sounds like we have a contestant. Please tell him to come on down.

[A9]

Keep it cool though...

[EastsideRedneck]

It amazes me that the same people who "love the earth" and vow to protect it are the same ones who propose ruining it with wind farms. It doesn't matter what the footprint of each windmill is, the impact has been made as soon as a contractor sets up camp to install/maintain it. PSE isn't the problem, its our "Governor" and her cohorts.

Until the <ill-informed> in this state remove their blinders about the benefits of nuclear power we will be at a power deficit. The French have successfully employed nuclear energy as their primary source of energy for decades without issue. The <ill-informed> are focused on the liquid-metal and graphite moderated reactors from the Soviets that were very poorly designed and maintained. The amount of waste produced per kilowatt is significantly less than coal-fired and other petroleum based energy sources. The impact on the environment in general is substantially less than raping the land with inefficient wind turbines and sun farms too; the only continuous pollution generated by these plants is the warm water discharge to the neighboring resevoirs. The amount of nuclear/hazardous waste produced is similar to the amount of batteries, flourescent lights, and paint products put into landfills every year.

What really torques me is the hydro-electric turbines that should have been installed when the new Tacoma Narrows bridge was constructed. These turbines would have had a minor impact on the environment due to their design and passive nature.

Sorry for the tangent...

[littleriver]

You are certainly correct in noting that the problem goes far beyond PSE there Red.

The local safeway store has signs on it's gas pumps celebrating this corporation's committment to wind power.

I've told the attendants that if they were really committed to "wind power" they would put the windmills at the store location not in someone else's back yard. And to be really committed they would of course have to disconnect themselves from the grid once the windmills have been installed. Couldn't get any takers on that level of commitment. But that's pretty typical of those in the environmental movement. Lots of commitment when it comes to talk but the crowds thin quickly when it becomes evident that action will also be required.

And speaking of "someone else's backyard" we should be asking PSE if their name uses the words "Puget Sound" then why aren't the windmills around puget sound?? Why are they way over in the colockum????

So anyways. There's gotta be more PSE employees than bassackwards within shouting distance of this forum. Would be nice to get some of them to join the conversation. I promise to be gentle.

[Fish-or-man?]

Well, there goes the "cool". Anyone who has a slightly different take on anything posted so far is now a hippie or a crazy environmentalist. The debate is over before anyone had a chance to see if they wanted to counter. If such topics are going to break down so quickly there are better vehicles to air out your political dirty laundry than WL.com.

So you understand where I'm coming from, I'm a middle of the road type of guy. I agree with, egh, 85% of what's been said here, but with the total vilification of anyone who doesn't see eye to eye with you that's already taken place, this'll either turn into a name calling session or let's pat eachother on the back type of affair... depending on who responds.

[A9]

Yes I agree Fish-or-Man,

This topic has been discussed previously, no need to feed this one, and I believe "off-topic" sections of boards can get sideways and in good fun, but I don't think that politics should be introduced to this degree in a fishing board.

[Drewp]

Not to Hijack your thread LR, but i have to disagree with Sam and Fish-or-Man on this one. Off-topic is a perfect place to ask these kinds of questions. I see nothing wrong with posing just about any question for debate, regardless of whether or not you've already decided that you've won.

LR - I don't really have any heartfelt hunting memories like you do in these areas, so I don't think I have much personally at stake and thus, don't really care. But going off of what you say here, and have said in the past, I agree with you and think that windmills sound like they are more of a pain than they are worth. What I find interesting about your argument is the amount of contempt you hold towards people that probably don't have much to do with, or care about these issues. Blanketing statments like all PSE employees should "weigh-in on this debate so you can school them," or, "what a bunch morons" the PSE employees are, must be aimed in a way to get a rise of someone who works for the company you aim to degrade. I really doubt the PSE guy who is on call all shift (at ungodly hours too mind you) to repair a gas leak in someones furnace really gives a crap about what PSE stands for, as long as they pay them their check at the end of the month. And come on, you really have nothing better to do than tell gas attendants at Safeway that they aren't committed to wind power? Gimme a break dude - I literally almost pissed myself when I read that.

That said, I saw a funny quote the other day that I will end this with. I must start with the disclaimer that I do not mean to degrade with this statement, so please don't take it the wrong way:

"Arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded."

Peace fellas.

[littleriver]

Well stated Fish-or-Man and you are correct of course. But I feel passion in regard to the loss of my cherished hunting area and I need someone to debate the issue with. Preferrably someone who is somehow involved with PSE (e.g. the entity I hold most responsible). So let's find someone who fits the description and when we're finished discussing the issue I will feel a lot better.

And you make a good point DrewP. Obviously the typical employee at PSE has no say in the decision to build windmills on the Whiskey Dick. What I really meant to say was I'm hoping to get an employee on who can talk to and convince someone "in charge" (a very, very low probability assymptotically approaching zero cuz these dudes are a bunch of arrogant cowards) to debate me or someone from the public relations department to make a contribution (a much more likely outcome). It would be interesting to get someone like that to defend PSE's actions. I think a spirited exchange between myself and that kind of person would be informative and entertaining for anyone on the forum who's interested in this particular issue and it would make me feel a lot better.

And, by the way, I had recognized the error in my wording soon after I wrote it but was too lazy to go back and make the corrections. I had planned to explain my real intent if and when a PSE employee responded.

[EastsideRedneck]

There... I self-moderated and softened my terms denoted by <>.

Off topic is off topic and I haven't even began on politics (which I will make every attempt to refrain.) I'll relate my pro-nuclear sentiment to fishing here in the Northwest. The warmwater discharge from a nuclear plant on the western side of this state would be a boon for the warm-water fishery attached to it.

As far as wind farm locations in the Puget Sound; I quite often wonder why they haven't sporouted up along the coastline near Pacific Beach or near the summit of Mts. Ranier/Baker.

[Drewp]

I think a spirited exchange between myself and that kind of person would be informative and entertaining for anyone on the forum who's interested in this particular issue and it would make me feel a lot better.

I think you are one of, if not the most, entertaining contributors on this site. I always look forward to reading your essays.

[Gringo Pescador]

When you put up windmills in the horse heavens I can sit back and just call it stupid,

What a bunch of morons. If you know anyone who works for PSE please have them sign up to this forum and join this debate it would be fun to educate one or more of them about the science of energy.

"When you put up windmills"
"just call it stupid"
"What a bunch of morons"

LR: You start off stating that everyone within PSE has a direct hand in putting up the windmills, then call them stupid morons. The way I read this - it sounds more like you need someone to unload on or browbeat than to debate with. IF I were a PSE employee, I certainly wouldn't be interested in offering myself up as the punching bag.

I am with Drewp - I too enjoy your contributions (both on and off topic), but you might want to work on your delivery8-[

[zen leecher aka Bill W]

so...windmills, nuke power, dams or burning garbage for power.... which is it going to be? I think windmills have the least impact.

Maybe we should all grow corn and turn it into alcohol?

signed,

pot stirring leecher

[A9]

Preferrably someone who is somehow involved with PSE (e.g. the entity I hold most responsible). So let's find someone who fits the description and when we're finished discussing the issue I will feel a lot better.

And you make a good point DrewP. Obviously the typical employee at PSE has no say in the decision to build windmills on the Whiskey Dick. What I really meant to say was I'm hoping to get an employee on who can talk to and convince someone "in charge" (a very, very low probability assymptotically approaching zero cuz these dudes are a bunch of arrogant cowards) to debate me or someone from the public relations department to make a contribution (a much more likely outcome). It would be interesting to get someone like that to defend PSE's actions. I think a spirited exchange between myself and that kind of person would be informative and entertaining for anyone on the forum who's interested in this particular issue and it would make me feel a lot better.

And, by the way, I had recognized the error in my wording soon after I wrote it but was too lazy to go back and make the corrections. I had planned to explain my real intent if and when a PSE employee responded.

So you are basically trying to argue with an EMPLOYEE who might have absolutely NO CALL in the placing of windmills in your hunting grounds, all to feel better about yourself so you can try and rip on him for what his company, not necessarily himself/herself has done?

In my opinion, if you got an issue, send some mail to the guys in charge of PSE..>Dont come onto internet forums to try and rip employees.

We understand you are passionate about your "anti-windmill" remarks. But theres a better place to pick arguments to make yourself feel better, especially when your are trying to pick one with just an employee....

Don't come here and call them arrogant cowards either. I am not myself and employee nor do I know anyone who does work for PSE, but like others said, there are employees of PSE on this forum and that's not cool to call someone out for their job just cause you have a dislike for the company or had some experiences with a few of the employees or for what the company has done.

[bassackwards]

Littleriver,

Wow...what a good read (took me a little longer than most). I work for PSE not ashamed of that and I'm not afraid to "debate" any topic with anyone. That's what makes this country GREAT, wouldn't you agree? However, if you are looking for a "platform" in which to plead your case, I think you would be better served writing your local officials for that. PSE isn't the bad guy here.

I think you're referring to the Wild Horse and Hopkins Ridge Wind Farms??? Correct?? Combined they generate enough electricity to power over 100,000 homes. Ever been to Palm Springs? Imperial Irrigation District (IID) gernerates so much power from the wind farms out there that they sell the surplus to Southern Cal. Edison and other local utilities, seems to be working there.

Let's not get on a pro vs. con discussion about "wind power". I'm a Manager at PSE, but don't claim to be a "wind" expert by any means. What I will do for you is put you in touch with or get some information to ease your mind a bit. I'm not going to try and change your mind because I think it's healthy to have differences of opinion and healthy debate. If this turns ugly, I'm simply going to stop responding....deal??

I appreciate and share your love for the outdoors. But the reality of it is, we are a growing state and a nation, we MUST take action now that has the least impact on our environment and our pocket books. I heard the "Nuclear" word mentioned...good luck getting anything like that approved, built and funded in Washington...PSE tried years ago and it "died on the vine" because of red tape.

I want to go on record as saying, I don't speak for PSE, I am an employee. The comments I make on here are only my opinion. So I HOPE you're not looking for a PSE employee to "grind on" cause I won't participate in that kind of exchange. I will be more than happy to gather some information and have a educated conversation with you man to man.

I come on this site to talk with my buddies (including yourself) about fishing, not to talk WORK...I'm sure you can appreciate that. :thumleft:

[littleriver]

Now Gringo and Zen you have to understand that when one declares themselves "passionate" about an issue then you have to allow them to use strong (but hopefully not vulgar) emotional words.

I have history in the colockum. I've hunted and hiked and 4 wheeled that country for many decades. In regard to hunting it turns out that I'm not a very good shot. I flushed and shot at and missed chukar for many years (probably going through literally dozens of boxes of shells). The first one I ever hit was in the colockum not to far from where one of the whiskey dick turbines now flops around. The Colockum was where I saw my first wild cougar, where I heard my first bull elk bugle, and where I helped a buddy carry out a huge cow he had bagged. It was 4 miles each way. The colockum was where I once went in with a 4 wheel rig when there was a couple of feet of snow on the ground. What a trip. Getting stuck, almost flipping the rig over several times, shooting quail and duck, and ultimately becoming irrecoverably lost. If we hadn't run into another rig that knew the only way out we would have had to leave the SUV and walk out in the moonlight. Probably would have had to leave it there for 3 or 4 months because it was a cold snowy winter that year. So with this history in mind I hope everyone understands that when I looked up at the Whiskey Dick last weekend and saw all those windmills it felt like I had been violated. It was an emotional experience. This is why I use strong language to describe the perpetrators of my anguish.

I know it's a real long shot but I didn't start this thread to rehash an earlier thread on roughly the same subject, I started it with the objective of bringing in someone from PSE to discuss wind power and energy issues. Someone who is in a position of authority or who works in the Public Relations department.

The strong words (i.e "coward", "idiot", "moron") are simply to stir the emotions a little. "Pretty Please" just doesn't seem appropriate at this time.

If it will make everyone feel better I will promise not to use this kind of language if I am successful in bringing in a worthy debating opponent (and this isn't to say that the rest of you aren't worthy it's just that I don't expect you to be carrying water for PSE).

So will someone please help me find what I am looking for here.

[Marc Martyn]

Littleriver-

I was browsing through the "New Members-Introduce Yourself" thread and noticed that you have never introduced yourself to others.
Pull up a chair, click on the link below and tell us more about you, your occupation, age, and interests etc.

http://www.washingtonlakes.com/Forum/vi ... .php?t=455

Perhaps maybe we could understand your point of view better, if we knew more about you.

[zen leecher aka Bill W]

Now Gringo and Zen you have to understand that when one declares themselves "passionate" about an issue then you have to allow them to use strong (but hopefully not vulgar) emotional words.

I have history in the colockum. I've hunted and hiked and 4 wheeled that country for many decades. In regard to hunting it turns out that I'm not a very good shot. I flushed and shot at and missed chukar for many years (probably going through literally dozens of boxes of shells). The first one I ever hit was in the colockum not to far from where one of the whiskey dick turbines now flops around. The Colockum was where I saw my first wild cougar, where I heard my first bull elk bugle, and where I helped a buddy carry out a huge cow he had bagged. It was 4 miles each way. The colockum was where I once went in with a 4 wheel rig when there was a couple of feet of snow on the ground. What a trip. Getting stuck, almost flipping the rig over several times, shooting quail and duck, and ultimately becoming irrecoverably lost. If we hadn't run into another rig that knew the only way out we would have had to leave the SUV and walk out in the moonlight. Probably would have had to leave it there for 3 or 4 months because it was a cold snowy winter that year. So with this history in mind I hope everyone understands that when I looked up at the Whiskey Dick last weekend and saw all those windmills it felt like I had been violated. It was an emotional experience. This is why I use strong language to describe the perpetrators of my anguish.

I know it's a real long shot but I didn't start this thread to rehash an earlier thread on roughly the same subject, I started it with the objective of bringing in someone from PSE to discuss wind power and energy issues. Someone who is in a position of authority or who works in the Public Relations department.

The strong words (i.e "coward", "idiot", "moron") are simply to stir the emotions a little. "Pretty Please" just doesn't seem appropriate at this time.

If it will make everyone feel better I will promise not to use this kind of language if I am successful in bringing in a worthy debating opponent (and this isn't to say that the rest of you aren't worthy it's just that I don't expect you to be carrying water for PSE).

So will someone please help me find what I am looking for here.

littleriver, I'm just stirring the pot and wanted to add (for consideration) other alternatives that may be less desirable. While my desire was to stir the pot my intent was not to rub anyone the wrong way.

I'm not a big fan of dams.

Bill

[littleriver]

Well it does surprise me a little that Bassackwards is a PSE employee. I've enjoyed reading your posts and you seem like a decent sort of guy so I'll take the high road in this debate. I'll even pass on some cautions so you don't lose your job.


Our state's utilities vary somewhat in their commitment to the ideologies of the environment. Snohomish County PUD is definitely the worse but I have no experience with PSE so all I can say to Bassackwards is to be very careful with the information I pass on to you in this debate. One of my younger brothers worked for the Snohomish County PUD back in the 80s and one of his supervisors was actually fired for being pro-nuclear. There is, however, no question about the political leanings of the BPA and the Northwest Power Planning Council. These are simply government funded environmental groups and their execs and council appointees are all arrogant, self-righteous eco-evangelists. I will also note that when I'm talking about BPA I'm talking about the guys and gals in the executive offices not the guys in the engineering department. Engineers there are quite capable but, as with most government and corporate entities, they have virtually no voice in company policy. In fact, most of the execs who decide on policy at BPA despise their engineers and wish that they could reinvent math and science in some form they can understand so they wouldn't actually have to hire these unsophisticated nuisances.

But back to the windmills. I'll respond to bassackward's post one point at at time. Clips from bassackwards post are presented in italics to make things easier to follow.....

Point 1....response to if you are looking for a "platform" in which to plead your case, I think you would be better served writing your local officials for that. PSE isn't the bad guy here.

Oddly enough, public forums like this are good way to deal with this kind of issue. I do send a lot of stuff to local officials and to my state level elected officials and they are supportive, but the problem is basic education in regard to the science of energy and this kind of has to be done one citizen at a time. Public forums like this are a good way to do this.

Point 2.. response to I think you're referring to the Wild Horse and Hopkins Ridge Wind Farms??? Correct??

As I recall the sign near the wind farm access road said "Wild Horse" but I call it the "Whiskey Dick" because that is the name of the high spot in the colockum where many of the turbines are located.

Ponite 3... response to Combined they generate enough electricity to power over 100,000 homes.

One of the first things we need to do in regard to "energy education" in this nation is to stop using this ridiculous "enough electricity to power 100 homes or 500 homes". I know bassackwards didn't come up with it. It's something all the utility public relations offices push and it's because they really don't understand energy and so they assume noone else does either. It's sort of like saying "This forest grows enough new wood every year to build a 1,000 homes". But then you ask, "are the homes made of wood or are they made of concrete?". Are they large homes or small homes? Do they have garages or not?? With the "enough electricity to power 100,0000 homes" statement you are forced to respond with questions like "Are the homes heated with gas or electricity?", "Are the homes insulated?", "Are they big homes or little homes??", etc., etc. You can go on and on but the bottom line is that this is a meaningless measure of electrical production. Electricity is producted by the Watt (or similar unit in other forms of measure) not by the "home" and generally sold by the kilowatt-hour not the "home-hour". And since a kilowatt is just a thousand watts we are still using the 'watt' as a form of measure. To verify you simply take a look at your most recent utility bill. It should list the number of kilowatt hours consumed and how much you are being charged for each kilowatt-hour. It doesn't list any rates for "home-hours".



Point #4 responding to Ever been to Palm Springs? Imperial Irrigation District (IID) gernerates so much power from the wind farms out there that they sell the surplus to Southern Cal. Edison and other local utilities, seems to be working there.

I've been debating energy issues for a couple of decades now and I've heard the word "surplus" so many times within this kind of context that it sends me into a rage but I'll control myself and just respond with the reality of the situation and the reality is that "There is no surplus". And that's the truth about "surplus". Now I'll explain the "illusion of surplus".

The primary and fundamental reason that wind power is not a good option and the reason that pretty much all windmills ever built were ultimately torn down or abandoned (and the same will happen to the units on the whiskey dick.. it may take 30 years, but they will ultimately be torn down or abandoned) is that wind power is "dilute and intermittent". Now dilute and intermittent don't seem like difficult words to understand, and they really aren't, but for some reason nobody understands them when they are applied to wind and solar energy. It's the "intermittent" concept that creates the "illusion of surplus". And all I'm saying here is that "the wind doesn't blow all the time". So one could have a wind farm running some pumps to power an irrigation system and when the wind is blowing you have a few pumps running and maybe, because you built some extra windmills to account for downtime and things like that, there's a little more energy than you need for that particular task at that time you have some you can dump on the grid and sell. You sell a little energy and get some revenue to partially offset your expenses but this is not "surplus"... this is an "illusion of surplus" because there is always demand for more energy than is available. The fact of the matter is that most of the time (up to 99% of the time) the windmills aren't generating anything at all and you are purchasing power from the grid to keep the pumps running but because for that 1% of the time there is a "little extra" the public relations people start jumping up and down and screaming "surplus".


Point #5. responding to I heard the "Nuclear" word mentioned...good luck getting anything like that approved, built and funded in Washington...PSE tried years ago and it "died on the vine" because of red tape.


There have been some interesting things happening with nuclear the last few years. A guy by the name of Spencer Abrams (he's actually of arab descent) was appointed Secretary of Energy by GW Bush in the year 2001 and he turned out to be the best Secretary of Energy we have ever had. While in that position he started the ball rolling to create a standardized design for a nuclear power plant along with a streamlined permit process. I didn't really pick up on how effective he had been until about 2 years ago when I heard that a friend of a friend who had been laid off by Bechtel back in the 90's got a call from the old boss to go back to work. The job was to prepare paperwork to start construction of a new nuclear power plant in New Mexico. Similar reports have been trickling in every since and now I find out that there are about 70 new nuclear power plant permits in process around the country with one going into Southern Idaho. One of my sources tells me that all the giant engineering company Bechtel is doing right now is pushing paperwork to get started on the construction of these plants.

So you may want to talk to the planning department at PSE and tell them if they are interested in nuclear power that they should call Bechtel. But be careful. The mere mention of the word nuclear at some PUD's in this state is enough to get you fired. But the bottom line is that nuclear is going to ultimately