Practice your casting in your hallway until the girl in the next room over screams at you to stop throwing that rattling crank against the wall.Sam Kafelafish wrote:Nah gpc I wish I could be out there. Unfortunately I'm off out of state at school. Hopefully I'll get to do some bassing here soon cause some buddies I've met here know some good bass lakes around here...
Now if there was just a way I could get a tacklebox and a rod down here...
Can't wait for thanksgiving break and a xmas break...40 days off between the two breaks and I'll be looking to fish as much as possible
Windmills!!
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iPodrodder
- Commodore
- Posts: 902
- Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 5:46 pm
- Location: Sammamish (N.00.00)
RE:Windmills!!
RE:Windmills!!
I 100% agree with ipodrodder, let's keep it civil. Most everyone inputting on this subject has deep felt beliefs and convictions about energy and alternative energy and I doubt that anyone is going to change their mind based on this thread. Remember guys, we know each other and are friends here, so don't let a disagreement about something that we are powerless to resolve here destroy that. I have friends on both sides of the topic, but at the end of the day, they are still my friends.
Be nice to each other and be respectful of the opinions of others even if we don't all agree. But most of all don't let a lurker come in and stir up the pot for obvious entertainment purposes. That's not what we are about here.
Be nice to each other and be respectful of the opinions of others even if we don't all agree. But most of all don't let a lurker come in and stir up the pot for obvious entertainment purposes. That's not what we are about here.
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bassackwards
- Commander
- Posts: 338
- Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 11:27 am
- Location: Southern California
RE:Windmills!!
"Mytch"...slow down a bit big guy. You came out of the "blocks" a little strong. You're new to WL.com so I'm gonna cut you some slack. You don't know me or any of the other guys on here. I do. Don't be so quick to add your "2 cents".
I'm not even going to respond to your comments directed at me. Like I said, be VERY careful of who and what you say about people. In other words, don't be "internet tough" bro.
I'd suggest you take a deep breath, regroup and try some of the other thread out for a while. I'm looking forward to hearing your background and getting to know you a little better.
Just remember to say "Thank you" to those mean awful utility workers (most of them have been working the last 30+ hours STRAIGHT) next time you see them, after all, without them (us) you wouldn't be able to read this :thumright
LR: Closing statement #15 to you buddy...I would support a "debate" as you call it, just after you sell your house, sell your car (s), stop shopping at ALL retail stores and move to the country and grow your own food and burn candles for light. We're AAAAALLLL dependant on power in one way or another, all forms of power. God made us all with our own minds and He gave us FREE WILL, meaning, we're all going to have different opinions on things. This is what our great Country was built on. We all need to work together or we're going to fail.
That's about all my 2 years in College (State school), 4 years in the Military, 4 years in Law Enforcement and 15 years in the utility industry can offer, what can say??? I don't have any student loan dept
:thumright
I'm not even going to respond to your comments directed at me. Like I said, be VERY careful of who and what you say about people. In other words, don't be "internet tough" bro.
I'd suggest you take a deep breath, regroup and try some of the other thread out for a while. I'm looking forward to hearing your background and getting to know you a little better.
Just remember to say "Thank you" to those mean awful utility workers (most of them have been working the last 30+ hours STRAIGHT) next time you see them, after all, without them (us) you wouldn't be able to read this :thumright
LR: Closing statement #15 to you buddy...I would support a "debate" as you call it, just after you sell your house, sell your car (s), stop shopping at ALL retail stores and move to the country and grow your own food and burn candles for light. We're AAAAALLLL dependant on power in one way or another, all forms of power. God made us all with our own minds and He gave us FREE WILL, meaning, we're all going to have different opinions on things. This is what our great Country was built on. We all need to work together or we're going to fail.
That's about all my 2 years in College (State school), 4 years in the Military, 4 years in Law Enforcement and 15 years in the utility industry can offer, what can say??? I don't have any student loan dept
:thumright
Last edited by Anonymous on Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
God Bless our brave men and women fighting to preserve our way of life!!!
RE:Windmills!!
I wish I had a rod here...Unfortunately, I don't. Some guys who live just down my hall in my dorm say they fish for largies at a lake that has pushed out 15+ lbers...I hope to get out and get some bassing in before it gets too cold here, but it's still 70+ everyday so I think the bassing will still be great if I can get out within the next few weeks..iPodrodder wrote:Practice your casting in your hallway until the girl in the next room over screams at you to stop throwing that rattling crank against the wall.Sam Kafelafish wrote:Nah gpc I wish I could be out there. Unfortunately I'm off out of state at school. Hopefully I'll get to do some bassing here soon cause some buddies I've met here know some good bass lakes around here...
Now if there was just a way I could get a tacklebox and a rod down here...
Can't wait for thanksgiving break and a xmas break...40 days off between the two breaks and I'll be looking to fish as much as possible
Don't chase reports...Be the report others chase....
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littleriver
- Commander
- Posts: 317
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:24 pm
- Location: Ethel, WA
- Contact:
RE:Windmills!!
Boy.. everyone says we shouldn't be talking about this subject but we got over 500 views and more than 80 posts on this thread already.
Have done a quick peruse of comments since my last post and Mr. Magler's is of great interest..
Mr. magler says...
Nuclear power is a great way to get a lot of power to a lot of people. However, it has one major pitfall: 1) WE HAVE NO WAY TO DISPOSE OF NUCLEAR WASTE! The high-level radioactive waste produced by nuclear reactors must be stored in containers that are capable of holding in elements like plutonium for their entire half-lifes. I don't like the idea of these highly toxic containers strewn about the earth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Magler has had some great posts on this site and I've enjoyed going back and forth with him on fishing issues and I look forward to continuing with those conversations but this "We have no way of disposing nuclear waste" thing is one of the greatest fantasies of our time.
In fact, waste disposal is one of the huge advantages of nuclear power over other forms of energy production. Coal plants pump huge amounts of waste into the environment (including more radioactivity than a nuclear power plant) and nobody every talks about a waste disposal problem there. Ditto (sort of but the quantities are much lower) for the fossil fuels like propane, diesel, gasoline, etc., etc.
Even solar and wind have serious and unaddressed waste management issues. Solar from the huge amounts of energy consumed to make the panel (if the source of that energy was coal burning power plants then the discharge from those plants has to be debited to the panels) and the dangerous chemicals used in their production and wind from the wastes created from the equipment and processes used to construct and operate the turbines and the disposal of the turbines when they end their useful life which is a lot sooner than most think.
With nuclear life is simple. You run the reactor, some fission products are formed (the Cesium 137 and Strontium 90 are pretty intense but the rest of the stuff is mostly low level alpha and beta emitters) and you contain them and store them for a few hundred years when the health risk drops to pretty much "zero". 450 years after spent nuclear fuel leaves a reactor the total radioactivity remaining is less than what was present in the ore that was mined to make the fuel in the first place. In other words, over a 5 century time frame nuclear power (fission that is) actually reduces the total radioactivity in planet earth.
Another interesting factoid being that after 1,000 years about 75% of the radioactivity left in a typical spend fuel rod is Americium 241. Americium 241 is the radioactive isotope found in the typical smoke detector you have in your home.
Don't believe me??? open up a detector in your home and check the internal electronics. Somewhere in there will be a "radioactivity" sticker. That's to warn you of the Americium-241. There are some new smoke detectors out that use light absorption rather than ionized particle technologies now but your home is best protected if you have one of each. I once told this to one of our clericals where I worked and a few weeks later she informed me that after passing on this information to a relative they took all the smoke detectors out of their home and disposed of them in the farthest corner of their ranch. Unbelieveable. This was a totally non-accepted and non-approved method for disposing of high level nuclear waste.
Not sure if anyone remembers the Jules Verne Novel "Journey to the Center of the Earth" but it was written in the 19th Century following the revelation from a prominent English Chemist Named "Kalvin". Dr. Kalvin is the one given credit for most of the discipline of "heat transfer" as it is practiced technically today and the "Kalvin" scale is named after him. He wrote a very widely read paper in the late 1800's in which he calculated the temperature of the center of the earth. His conclusion was that this temperature was in the range of what we refer to as "room temperature". Hence the fascination with the subject and the book by Jules depicting several brave scientists and adventurers making the journey downstairs.
Kind of funny now. Especially considering that we all know about plate tectonics and we know that the center of the earth is a molten core that feeds volcanoes and geothermal plants and causes (at least indirectly) earthquakes. But Dr. Kalvin's calculations were very accurate except for one thing. He didn't know about radioactive decay. It wasn't until the very end of the 19th Century that madame Curie discovered radioactivity and then a few years later that Neil's Bohr made his remarkable observation and the race was on that kind of ended with the nuclear bombs over Nagasaki and Hiroshima but that was just a 'wake up call". The development of the science continued with great intensity through the 50's with the development and validation of the Chart of the nuclides and huge advances in the use of radionuclides in medicine and other important industries along with the development of nuclear power for defense and non-defense purposes.
The energy source that keeps the core of our planet molten is radioactive decay and this is from the very same kinds of radionuclides we refer to as "High Level Nuclear Waste".
The whole "How are we going to dispose of the waste" thing is totally bogus and one of the more interesting confirmations of this fact is environmental response to a press release from the Governor of Idaho last week declaring that he is an unabashed supporter of Nuclear Power. Environmentalists responded to this announcement by saying that nuclear power is not a good option because it is so highly subsidized by the government. They didn't mention waste disposal or mushroom clouds or anything like that because they know the arguments are bogus and they aren't going to get away with that kind of nonsense anymore. They just pushed the "subsidy" thing even though they surely know full well that wind and solar are the "subsidy kings" of all the various energy options.
Have done a quick peruse of comments since my last post and Mr. Magler's is of great interest..
Mr. magler says...
Nuclear power is a great way to get a lot of power to a lot of people. However, it has one major pitfall: 1) WE HAVE NO WAY TO DISPOSE OF NUCLEAR WASTE! The high-level radioactive waste produced by nuclear reactors must be stored in containers that are capable of holding in elements like plutonium for their entire half-lifes. I don't like the idea of these highly toxic containers strewn about the earth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Magler has had some great posts on this site and I've enjoyed going back and forth with him on fishing issues and I look forward to continuing with those conversations but this "We have no way of disposing nuclear waste" thing is one of the greatest fantasies of our time.
In fact, waste disposal is one of the huge advantages of nuclear power over other forms of energy production. Coal plants pump huge amounts of waste into the environment (including more radioactivity than a nuclear power plant) and nobody every talks about a waste disposal problem there. Ditto (sort of but the quantities are much lower) for the fossil fuels like propane, diesel, gasoline, etc., etc.
Even solar and wind have serious and unaddressed waste management issues. Solar from the huge amounts of energy consumed to make the panel (if the source of that energy was coal burning power plants then the discharge from those plants has to be debited to the panels) and the dangerous chemicals used in their production and wind from the wastes created from the equipment and processes used to construct and operate the turbines and the disposal of the turbines when they end their useful life which is a lot sooner than most think.
With nuclear life is simple. You run the reactor, some fission products are formed (the Cesium 137 and Strontium 90 are pretty intense but the rest of the stuff is mostly low level alpha and beta emitters) and you contain them and store them for a few hundred years when the health risk drops to pretty much "zero". 450 years after spent nuclear fuel leaves a reactor the total radioactivity remaining is less than what was present in the ore that was mined to make the fuel in the first place. In other words, over a 5 century time frame nuclear power (fission that is) actually reduces the total radioactivity in planet earth.
Another interesting factoid being that after 1,000 years about 75% of the radioactivity left in a typical spend fuel rod is Americium 241. Americium 241 is the radioactive isotope found in the typical smoke detector you have in your home.
Don't believe me??? open up a detector in your home and check the internal electronics. Somewhere in there will be a "radioactivity" sticker. That's to warn you of the Americium-241. There are some new smoke detectors out that use light absorption rather than ionized particle technologies now but your home is best protected if you have one of each. I once told this to one of our clericals where I worked and a few weeks later she informed me that after passing on this information to a relative they took all the smoke detectors out of their home and disposed of them in the farthest corner of their ranch. Unbelieveable. This was a totally non-accepted and non-approved method for disposing of high level nuclear waste.
Not sure if anyone remembers the Jules Verne Novel "Journey to the Center of the Earth" but it was written in the 19th Century following the revelation from a prominent English Chemist Named "Kalvin". Dr. Kalvin is the one given credit for most of the discipline of "heat transfer" as it is practiced technically today and the "Kalvin" scale is named after him. He wrote a very widely read paper in the late 1800's in which he calculated the temperature of the center of the earth. His conclusion was that this temperature was in the range of what we refer to as "room temperature". Hence the fascination with the subject and the book by Jules depicting several brave scientists and adventurers making the journey downstairs.
Kind of funny now. Especially considering that we all know about plate tectonics and we know that the center of the earth is a molten core that feeds volcanoes and geothermal plants and causes (at least indirectly) earthquakes. But Dr. Kalvin's calculations were very accurate except for one thing. He didn't know about radioactive decay. It wasn't until the very end of the 19th Century that madame Curie discovered radioactivity and then a few years later that Neil's Bohr made his remarkable observation and the race was on that kind of ended with the nuclear bombs over Nagasaki and Hiroshima but that was just a 'wake up call". The development of the science continued with great intensity through the 50's with the development and validation of the Chart of the nuclides and huge advances in the use of radionuclides in medicine and other important industries along with the development of nuclear power for defense and non-defense purposes.
The energy source that keeps the core of our planet molten is radioactive decay and this is from the very same kinds of radionuclides we refer to as "High Level Nuclear Waste".
The whole "How are we going to dispose of the waste" thing is totally bogus and one of the more interesting confirmations of this fact is environmental response to a press release from the Governor of Idaho last week declaring that he is an unabashed supporter of Nuclear Power. Environmentalists responded to this announcement by saying that nuclear power is not a good option because it is so highly subsidized by the government. They didn't mention waste disposal or mushroom clouds or anything like that because they know the arguments are bogus and they aren't going to get away with that kind of nonsense anymore. They just pushed the "subsidy" thing even though they surely know full well that wind and solar are the "subsidy kings" of all the various energy options.
Last edited by Anonymous on Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
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Mike Carey
- Owner/Editor
- Posts: 7765
- Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:56 am
- Location: Redmond, WA
- Contact:
RE:Windmills!!
Now I know why I haven't checked out the "Off Topic" area before. Have fun guys.
:bom:
"Takers get the honey, Givers sing the blues".
RE:Windmills!!
we moved here from minnesota in "78" to east wenatchee . the first year was really an over load of the senses especially with the views that "WAS" one of washingtons trademarks. funny how the westside looks to the eastside to exploit . yea we need to have other options for powering up our computers, etc. but why shove it down the throuts of the ones who have to live with what they are putting up?. could they be the same ones trashing our lakes and streams not thinking of the ones who live and use the areas, they most likely live in those big homes that eat up alot of electricity, with no yards. so why not exploit the ones who wish to live with some scenery so they can feel good about using so much of it (electricity) seems the view of the minority gets to override the majority. of course this is just what i seem to see in the picture, someone else will see it differently and i may see something different at a latter time.
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Marc Martyn
- Rear Admiral Two Stars
- Posts: 4100
- Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:01 am
RE:Windmills!!
Littleriver-
Please don't chop down the Amber Lake Windmill.
It looks so pretty at sunset.
Please don't chop down the Amber Lake Windmill.
It looks so pretty at sunset.- Attachments
-
- Amber_Windmill_1.JPG (120.28 KiB) Viewed 4370 times
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr. Magler
- Petty Officer
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 1:27 pm
- Location: Lake Stevens, WA
RE:Windmills!!
Some decent points there, littleriver.
The truth is, high-level radioactive waste can only be temporarily stored at the reactor site in pools or above-ground caskets. Once that space gets filled up with storage containers, then what? Storing waste is not the same as safely disposing of it.
There is no such thing as a nuclear waste repository - that is a fact, not an opinion. There are several options for permanent disposal being explored right now, but nobody has figured it out yet. The options they are exploring make me pretty nervous. A) Store in longer-lasting above-ground caskets (too accessable to humans that want to use it for ill purposes) B) Vitrification - store it in containers deeper in the Earth (too risky since the only way to see if the containers will leak waste is to fill them up with waste) C) Store it deep in the ocean under tectonic plates to massage the material into the earth's crust (yikes!)
All of the options rely on humans handling the waste. Sorry, but nobody is perfect and accidents will happen. Accidents are rare, but it only takes one with high-level radioactive waste to have a huge impact on life on earth.
I find it funny that littleriver keeps mentioning the Governor of Idaho. As if a politician supporting nuclear power means that waste disposal is a "bogus" issue. Ha! All you need is a politician's approval? No bias there! He just wants money for his state in the quickest way possible. Nuclear power sure is a money-maker, but I highly doubt he cares about the long-term effects of our inability to dispose of waste.
I'm not talking about mushroom clouds here. I'm talking about small leakage of high-level waste like plutonium. It's hardly a "fantasy". It's a legitimate concern that nobody has found a solution to.
There is no perfect energy source. Every choice has byproducts of some kind. It's just a matter of how great their impact will be on this planet. To me, radioactive byproducts are absolutely the most dangerous of any energy source. And without a way to permanently store radioactive waste (at least for more than 40-50years), then I can not be convinced this is the best long-term solution to our energy shortages. Is it a good short-term? Maybe. But that seems to be the way we look at everything these days. What is best for me this minute? That's good enough for me when I'm deciding what to eat for lunch, but not for this issue.
The truth is, high-level radioactive waste can only be temporarily stored at the reactor site in pools or above-ground caskets. Once that space gets filled up with storage containers, then what? Storing waste is not the same as safely disposing of it.
There is no such thing as a nuclear waste repository - that is a fact, not an opinion. There are several options for permanent disposal being explored right now, but nobody has figured it out yet. The options they are exploring make me pretty nervous. A) Store in longer-lasting above-ground caskets (too accessable to humans that want to use it for ill purposes) B) Vitrification - store it in containers deeper in the Earth (too risky since the only way to see if the containers will leak waste is to fill them up with waste) C) Store it deep in the ocean under tectonic plates to massage the material into the earth's crust (yikes!)
All of the options rely on humans handling the waste. Sorry, but nobody is perfect and accidents will happen. Accidents are rare, but it only takes one with high-level radioactive waste to have a huge impact on life on earth.
I find it funny that littleriver keeps mentioning the Governor of Idaho. As if a politician supporting nuclear power means that waste disposal is a "bogus" issue. Ha! All you need is a politician's approval? No bias there! He just wants money for his state in the quickest way possible. Nuclear power sure is a money-maker, but I highly doubt he cares about the long-term effects of our inability to dispose of waste.
I'm not talking about mushroom clouds here. I'm talking about small leakage of high-level waste like plutonium. It's hardly a "fantasy". It's a legitimate concern that nobody has found a solution to.
There is no perfect energy source. Every choice has byproducts of some kind. It's just a matter of how great their impact will be on this planet. To me, radioactive byproducts are absolutely the most dangerous of any energy source. And without a way to permanently store radioactive waste (at least for more than 40-50years), then I can not be convinced this is the best long-term solution to our energy shortages. Is it a good short-term? Maybe. But that seems to be the way we look at everything these days. What is best for me this minute? That's good enough for me when I'm deciding what to eat for lunch, but not for this issue.
Wishin' I was fishin',
Mr. Magler
Mr. Magler
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littleriver
- Commander
- Posts: 317
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:24 pm
- Location: Ethel, WA
- Contact:
RE:Windmills!!
There's been a lot of political and regulatory stuff happen over the years in regard to high level nuclear waste and it's disposition in regard to being transferred from storage at the plants and, to be honest, I'm not really sure where that paperwork is right now. It's been a couple of decades since I've worked in the industry.
So just let me make a few notes on that subject.
Nuclear Fuel reprocessing and waste management is one of Great Britain's and France's larger sources of foreign currency. In 1986 it was Great Britain's number one export. These nation's compete for the business and last year or the year before congress passed legislation allowing our nation to make it a commercial enterprise here. Judging from that information I think it's safe to assume that the "reactor storage" backlog has been cleared.
And it's interesting that you would mention Plutonium. Plutonium-239 (I assume that's the particular isotope you are concerned with) has a half life of about 25,000 years and is slightly less toxic than Radium. Plutonium-238 has a half life of about 25 years and is used to power long life batteries in heart pacemakers. So, hopefully, nobody is too frightened of that stuff.
Plutonium-239 isn't found in nature right now but it has been present at least once in our planet's history. In the 1980's scientists found evidence of naturally occurring nuclear fission reactor at the Oklo mines in Gabon Africa. About 100 million years ago the U-235 levels in natural uranium were higher than they are now (fissionable 235 decays away faster than non-fissionalble 238) and this area (by the Oklo mines) was critical for probably about 10,000 years. This would have created a lot of Pu-239 but it's pretty much all decayed away as of current times.
When Pu-239 was first identified it was assumed to be as toxic as Radium but experience with internal depositions over the decades since WWII have shown that it just doesn't have the toxic punch that Radium has. It's still something that has to be tightly controlled and handled with care but it wasn't as bad as they thought it would be.
Pretty much all the Pu-239 in the earth's crust and atmosphere now was man-made but all the radium is natural and there's a lot of it.
I don't know if anyone has noticed the recent Campbell's soup commercial bragging about the taste benefits of "sea salt". Well, guess what. I'm not sure of the concentrations but radium and uranium are both present in sea salt. I'm also not sure how they help the soup taste better. Maybe it's because they are "natural".
Nice windmill picture Marc. I like those kind as long as their aren't too many of them marching in formation. My grandfather used to have one just like that on his farm. In the early 50's, which was when I first visited him, he didn't have power lines out the ranch home yet and he used to brag how the windmill helped keep the batteries charged. But I kept hearing these very loud noises in the evenings and the racket would last for half an hour or so. I finally asked him about that and he informed me that that was the diesel generators that were also used to charge the batteries.
I'm still waiting to see one of those things mounted on top of an electric car driven by a totally committed environmental advocate.
So just let me make a few notes on that subject.
Nuclear Fuel reprocessing and waste management is one of Great Britain's and France's larger sources of foreign currency. In 1986 it was Great Britain's number one export. These nation's compete for the business and last year or the year before congress passed legislation allowing our nation to make it a commercial enterprise here. Judging from that information I think it's safe to assume that the "reactor storage" backlog has been cleared.
And it's interesting that you would mention Plutonium. Plutonium-239 (I assume that's the particular isotope you are concerned with) has a half life of about 25,000 years and is slightly less toxic than Radium. Plutonium-238 has a half life of about 25 years and is used to power long life batteries in heart pacemakers. So, hopefully, nobody is too frightened of that stuff.
Plutonium-239 isn't found in nature right now but it has been present at least once in our planet's history. In the 1980's scientists found evidence of naturally occurring nuclear fission reactor at the Oklo mines in Gabon Africa. About 100 million years ago the U-235 levels in natural uranium were higher than they are now (fissionable 235 decays away faster than non-fissionalble 238) and this area (by the Oklo mines) was critical for probably about 10,000 years. This would have created a lot of Pu-239 but it's pretty much all decayed away as of current times.
When Pu-239 was first identified it was assumed to be as toxic as Radium but experience with internal depositions over the decades since WWII have shown that it just doesn't have the toxic punch that Radium has. It's still something that has to be tightly controlled and handled with care but it wasn't as bad as they thought it would be.
Pretty much all the Pu-239 in the earth's crust and atmosphere now was man-made but all the radium is natural and there's a lot of it.
I don't know if anyone has noticed the recent Campbell's soup commercial bragging about the taste benefits of "sea salt". Well, guess what. I'm not sure of the concentrations but radium and uranium are both present in sea salt. I'm also not sure how they help the soup taste better. Maybe it's because they are "natural".
Nice windmill picture Marc. I like those kind as long as their aren't too many of them marching in formation. My grandfather used to have one just like that on his farm. In the early 50's, which was when I first visited him, he didn't have power lines out the ranch home yet and he used to brag how the windmill helped keep the batteries charged. But I kept hearing these very loud noises in the evenings and the racket would last for half an hour or so. I finally asked him about that and he informed me that that was the diesel generators that were also used to charge the batteries.
I'm still waiting to see one of those things mounted on top of an electric car driven by a totally committed environmental advocate.
Last edited by Anonymous on Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
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Marc Martyn
- Rear Admiral Two Stars
- Posts: 4100
- Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:01 am
RE:Windmills!!
I believe that falls in the realm of perpetual motion, which is highly unlikely. Not to say that someone will probably try doing it.littleriver wrote: I'm still waiting to see one of those things mounted on top of an electric car driven by a totally committed environmental advocate.
".....marching in formation".
I'm glad that you still can find humor.
Last edited by Anonymous on Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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littleriver
- Commander
- Posts: 317
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:24 pm
- Location: Ethel, WA
- Contact:
RE:Windmills!!
Now I'm feeling kind of bad....
I found this press release in the Olympian this morning.....
-----------------------------------------------
Puget Sound Energy sold
The Associated Press
BELLEVUE, Wash. — A group of Canadian investors is buying Puget Sound Energy, the state's largest private utility.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean all I wanted to do was have a man to man discussion about the "Whiskey Dick Windmills" with someone in charge at PSE.
but instead of just talking about it with me they apparently read the thread got all scared and are now selling off to a canadian firm.......
A canadian firm bought the power generating plant near Centralia a couple of years ago and ultimately ended up closing the coal mine and laying off about 200 workers. Hopefully this kind of thing doesn't happen at PSE.
This is way too radical a response.
I found this press release in the Olympian this morning.....
-----------------------------------------------
Puget Sound Energy sold
The Associated Press
BELLEVUE, Wash. — A group of Canadian investors is buying Puget Sound Energy, the state's largest private utility.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean all I wanted to do was have a man to man discussion about the "Whiskey Dick Windmills" with someone in charge at PSE.
but instead of just talking about it with me they apparently read the thread got all scared and are now selling off to a canadian firm.......
A canadian firm bought the power generating plant near Centralia a couple of years ago and ultimately ended up closing the coal mine and laying off about 200 workers. Hopefully this kind of thing doesn't happen at PSE.
This is way too radical a response.
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
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Mr. Magler
- Petty Officer
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 1:27 pm
- Location: Lake Stevens, WA
RE:Windmills!!
Bummer that they sold out to another country...that's a little scary.
At least you can joke about it, littleriver. "they apperently read the thread got all scared and are now selling..."
Yep. They are shaking in their boots about the Off Topic threads on a fishing site. HAHAHAHAHA! You're hilarious! We should go fly fishing sometime
At least you can joke about it, littleriver. "they apperently read the thread got all scared and are now selling..."
Yep. They are shaking in their boots about the Off Topic threads on a fishing site. HAHAHAHAHA! You're hilarious! We should go fly fishing sometime
Last edited by Anonymous on Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wishin' I was fishin',
Mr. Magler
Mr. Magler
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Marc Martyn
- Rear Admiral Two Stars
- Posts: 4100
- Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:01 am
RE:Windmills!!
A little scary!Mr. Magler wrote:Bummer that they sold out to another country...that's a little scary.
Man I have been scared for many years. Is anything owned by the American's anymore?!
China owns much of our debt. Now that is scary!8-[
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iPodrodder
- Commodore
- Posts: 902
- Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 5:46 pm
- Location: Sammamish (N.00.00)
RE:Windmills!!
littleriver wrote:Now I'm feeling kind of bad....
I found this press release in the Olympian this morning.....
-----------------------------------------------
Puget Sound Energy sold
The Associated Press
BELLEVUE, Wash. — A group of Canadian investors is buying Puget Sound Energy, the state's largest private utility.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean all I wanted to do was have a man to man discussion about the "Whiskey Dick Windmills" with someone in charge at PSE.
but instead of just talking about it with me they apparently read the thread got all scared and are now selling off to a canadian firm.......
A canadian firm bought the power generating plant near Centralia a couple of years ago and ultimately ended up closing the coal mine and laying off about 200 workers. Hopefully this kind of thing doesn't happen at PSE.
This is way too radical a response.
On King5
".....and in other news, Bellevue-based PSE has been bought out by Canadian investors. The $2.4 billion deal is reportedly stemming from a scandal in the making. If not for a leak, this scandal could end up charging customers double what they pay now! Let's go to Matt Dobson for a report on the leak."
Cut scene to an after dark, rainy residential area with a reporter on camera.
"Thanks Lara. I'm outside Mike Carey's house in Redmond. Mr. Carey founded a site called WashingtonLakes.com, owned and operated between him and Aaron Borg. The site is mainly about fishing. So why am I talking about this site and PSE together? Well, it seems that this site's forum has a user well known on the site almost as well as 'lonelygirl15' (more on her later). Littleriver, as this persona is named, has uncovered, quite accidentally through hunting trips on the "Whiskey Dick", PSE's diabolical plot. The plan was to make windmills, to the delight of eco-friendly *#$@*$#(@#($#)%*$ people. Well, it was released to the public that the windmills would power 300 homes. But all those houses were heated and run on gas, not electricity. Homeowners in on the scam would pretend it was great, to get other customers to buy into the plan. The eco-%$#$*%&* people would then throw their financial backing in, making PSE as rich as those #$%$%#&$&# people from Enron.
But littleriver saw through it, and published his findings on WL.com. It quickly filtered to bassackwards, a fellow user and employee of PSE. Bassackwards quit (not really) his job and announced it to the media. With shares dropping fast, them Canadian hockeydudes bought out the company."
DODODO DO! That's it for tonight's report. Matt, thanks for the update.
Well, there is my projection of how this thing went. haha.
:dj: out.
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littleriver
- Commander
- Posts: 317
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:24 pm
- Location: Ethel, WA
- Contact:
RE:Windmills!!
I'm a little confused by Bassackward's comment: "I would support a "debate" as you call it, just after you sell your house, sell your car (s), stop shopping at ALL retail stores and move to the country and grow your own food and burn candles for light. We're AAAAALLLL dependant on power in one way or another, all forms of power."
Anyone who has followed the environmental movement to any degree understands that "denying us access to energy" is what those windmills are all about. A great Environmental Think Tanker named Amory Lovins actually came up with the notion of "soft path" and windmills are one of the "soft path" options. Amory was also once quoted as follows: "Providing the masses with cheap and abundant energy would be like giving an idiot child a machine gun". But I should also note that the primary focus of most utilities in this state is "distribution" not "generation". They buy power from BPA and distribute it to customers. That means building and maintaining a large and expensive grid and it's important work and I don' t want to understate it's value. Further this grid is one of the pieces of a larger infrastructure (power plants, highways, telephone lines, etc.) in this country that keeps us from being just another third world nation. I stated over and over again that my problem with the windmills on "whiskey dick" are that they are a very dilute and intermittent source of energy. Further, they are expensive and not all that environmentally friendly. And this from a guy who, along with his love for fishing, likes to hunt, hike, and 4 wheel drive. It's the "greens" who want us to burn candles, not me.
The windmills at "Whiskey Dick" and the buyout of PSE by a canadian company and $3 per gallon gasoline and $3.50 diesel are actually related events. They are symptomatic of a failed energy policy. The political power of the environmental movement keeps us from drilling for gas and oil anywhere in this country except the mountain states and the Gulf region and it has kept us from pursuing rational energy options like nuclear. Because of this we are overdependent on energy from places like the middle east and Canada. (What.. AND CANADA??). Actually canada has always has always produced and sold us a lot of natural gas along with a little bit of oil. A few years back they figured out how to turn the Alberta Tar Sands into the equivalent of $15/barrel oil and the money has been pouring in ever since. With the tar sands the province of Alberta actually has greater energy reserves than Saudi Arabia. In other words, canadian energy companies are raking it in. They are rich and they are getting richer because of our nation's energy ignorance. It's no accident that PSE sold out to a canadian company. I suspect that many large utilities in this country have standing offers from canadian energy companies I just feel badly that PSE management chose that route instead of just talking to me about their windmills on the Whiskey Dick.
I mean, here's the facts. On october 15th I start a thread bellyaching about their windmills with the sole purpose of trying to draw one of their top managers into a debate on the subject and 2 weeks later they sell out to a Canadian energy company. Now I know that some participants like Mr. Magler think that this was entirely a coincident and it may very well have been. In these kinds of situations you never know for sure. But, from my perspective, it just seems too, well, coincidental.
However, this said and because Mr. Magler has written so many interesting and provocative posts on this and other threads and because he brought up the issue of plutonium I will reward him with my favorite Plutonium Horror Story. Now, I assume that Mr. Magler is referring to Plutonium-239. You know, the one with the half-life of about 25,000 years. The one that's used for making thermonuclear devices (how 'bout that... we can go from windmills to thermo-nuclear devices in just one short thread here at the WashingtonLakes.com fishing forum).
Anyways, the year was 1969. The place was the sprawling Rocky Flats defense production facility near Boulder Colorado. Rocky Flats was where "special materials" (e.g. Plutonium) were reformed and machined into parts that were then sent to Pantex for final assembly. The production facilities processed a lot of plutonium metal and, as we all now know, Plutonium metal is "pyrophoric" (e.g. it can start burning all by itself if you simple let the humidity get a little too high) and one of the hunks of metal started "self burning" this very bad day. The fire spread quickly and, in part because of procedural errors by responding firefighters, it wasn't long before the entire building burned essentially to the ground. I don't know how much Plutonium was in the building at the time but the quantity could have easily been in the tons. I also don't know how much of it was actually recovered, but it probably wasn't much. Plutonium is very dense but once it's in oxide form it will break down into small particles and it can travel a long, long ways. The wind was blowing from the NE that day and as anyone familiar with the Denver area can readily tell you, Golden colorado is only a short distance south and west of Boulder.. I think it's 10 miles or so.
At the time the only place the giant Coors company brewed beer was in Golden. I don't follow the beer industry too much but it is at least very highly likely that Coors has built another brewery or two around the country since that time. Weeks following the fire there were cleanup crews still working at the brewery and at many other locations downwind of the plant. Now, just so nobody thinks they are getting in on classified info here, the accident was widely reported in the media at the time. I did some consulting work at rocky flats in the mid 80's (about 15 years after the incident) and met and chatted with many of the workers there. So I got most of this information from employees who were working there when it happened but they were not people with "command/control" responsibilities so their knowledge of the subject was general in nature (e.g. they didn't have access to quantities and that kind of detail stuff). Because of my knowledge of this event I still don't drink Coors beer. In fact, generally the only time I talk about the event is at social gatherings when someone orders a Coors or professes their loyalty to the brand. However, I used to love their commercial that said "We ain't no downstream beer". I would always respond to the television with a "Yeah, but are you a downwind beer??".
I have always wondered why the environmental types don't talk more about this accident. I mean it was truly the "chernobyl" of the US Defense production industry. About 20 years ago one of the major networks aired a special about Rocky Flats and it sort of focused on some farmer with a bunch of cancerous pigs but it never made any real mention of the accident or talked about how the "bad stuff" could have caused the pigs to be cancerous. They just showed a bunch of pictures of the plant and pictures of the pigs and left the audience to be the judge. The answer to this might be simply that the environmental movement, as we know it today, didn't really get started until the early seventies. I've always logged it's birth year as 1972 when William Ruckelshaus banned DDT, but that's another story entirely. Maybe if this unfortunate accident had happened 10 years later we would still be talking about it the way we talk about chernobyl. Fortuanately, though, and unlike chernobyl there were no direct fatalities from the Rocky Flats accident.
10 years or so after the accident Ralph Nader was delighting audiences with a little routine where he would hold up a pencil. He would then implore the audience to imagine the little portion of graphite that protrudes from the end of the pencil's cylindrical
Anyone who has followed the environmental movement to any degree understands that "denying us access to energy" is what those windmills are all about. A great Environmental Think Tanker named Amory Lovins actually came up with the notion of "soft path" and windmills are one of the "soft path" options. Amory was also once quoted as follows: "Providing the masses with cheap and abundant energy would be like giving an idiot child a machine gun". But I should also note that the primary focus of most utilities in this state is "distribution" not "generation". They buy power from BPA and distribute it to customers. That means building and maintaining a large and expensive grid and it's important work and I don' t want to understate it's value. Further this grid is one of the pieces of a larger infrastructure (power plants, highways, telephone lines, etc.) in this country that keeps us from being just another third world nation. I stated over and over again that my problem with the windmills on "whiskey dick" are that they are a very dilute and intermittent source of energy. Further, they are expensive and not all that environmentally friendly. And this from a guy who, along with his love for fishing, likes to hunt, hike, and 4 wheel drive. It's the "greens" who want us to burn candles, not me.
The windmills at "Whiskey Dick" and the buyout of PSE by a canadian company and $3 per gallon gasoline and $3.50 diesel are actually related events. They are symptomatic of a failed energy policy. The political power of the environmental movement keeps us from drilling for gas and oil anywhere in this country except the mountain states and the Gulf region and it has kept us from pursuing rational energy options like nuclear. Because of this we are overdependent on energy from places like the middle east and Canada. (What.. AND CANADA??). Actually canada has always has always produced and sold us a lot of natural gas along with a little bit of oil. A few years back they figured out how to turn the Alberta Tar Sands into the equivalent of $15/barrel oil and the money has been pouring in ever since. With the tar sands the province of Alberta actually has greater energy reserves than Saudi Arabia. In other words, canadian energy companies are raking it in. They are rich and they are getting richer because of our nation's energy ignorance. It's no accident that PSE sold out to a canadian company. I suspect that many large utilities in this country have standing offers from canadian energy companies I just feel badly that PSE management chose that route instead of just talking to me about their windmills on the Whiskey Dick.
I mean, here's the facts. On october 15th I start a thread bellyaching about their windmills with the sole purpose of trying to draw one of their top managers into a debate on the subject and 2 weeks later they sell out to a Canadian energy company. Now I know that some participants like Mr. Magler think that this was entirely a coincident and it may very well have been. In these kinds of situations you never know for sure. But, from my perspective, it just seems too, well, coincidental.
However, this said and because Mr. Magler has written so many interesting and provocative posts on this and other threads and because he brought up the issue of plutonium I will reward him with my favorite Plutonium Horror Story. Now, I assume that Mr. Magler is referring to Plutonium-239. You know, the one with the half-life of about 25,000 years. The one that's used for making thermonuclear devices (how 'bout that... we can go from windmills to thermo-nuclear devices in just one short thread here at the WashingtonLakes.com fishing forum).
Anyways, the year was 1969. The place was the sprawling Rocky Flats defense production facility near Boulder Colorado. Rocky Flats was where "special materials" (e.g. Plutonium) were reformed and machined into parts that were then sent to Pantex for final assembly. The production facilities processed a lot of plutonium metal and, as we all now know, Plutonium metal is "pyrophoric" (e.g. it can start burning all by itself if you simple let the humidity get a little too high) and one of the hunks of metal started "self burning" this very bad day. The fire spread quickly and, in part because of procedural errors by responding firefighters, it wasn't long before the entire building burned essentially to the ground. I don't know how much Plutonium was in the building at the time but the quantity could have easily been in the tons. I also don't know how much of it was actually recovered, but it probably wasn't much. Plutonium is very dense but once it's in oxide form it will break down into small particles and it can travel a long, long ways. The wind was blowing from the NE that day and as anyone familiar with the Denver area can readily tell you, Golden colorado is only a short distance south and west of Boulder.. I think it's 10 miles or so.
At the time the only place the giant Coors company brewed beer was in Golden. I don't follow the beer industry too much but it is at least very highly likely that Coors has built another brewery or two around the country since that time. Weeks following the fire there were cleanup crews still working at the brewery and at many other locations downwind of the plant. Now, just so nobody thinks they are getting in on classified info here, the accident was widely reported in the media at the time. I did some consulting work at rocky flats in the mid 80's (about 15 years after the incident) and met and chatted with many of the workers there. So I got most of this information from employees who were working there when it happened but they were not people with "command/control" responsibilities so their knowledge of the subject was general in nature (e.g. they didn't have access to quantities and that kind of detail stuff). Because of my knowledge of this event I still don't drink Coors beer. In fact, generally the only time I talk about the event is at social gatherings when someone orders a Coors or professes their loyalty to the brand. However, I used to love their commercial that said "We ain't no downstream beer". I would always respond to the television with a "Yeah, but are you a downwind beer??".
I have always wondered why the environmental types don't talk more about this accident. I mean it was truly the "chernobyl" of the US Defense production industry. About 20 years ago one of the major networks aired a special about Rocky Flats and it sort of focused on some farmer with a bunch of cancerous pigs but it never made any real mention of the accident or talked about how the "bad stuff" could have caused the pigs to be cancerous. They just showed a bunch of pictures of the plant and pictures of the pigs and left the audience to be the judge. The answer to this might be simply that the environmental movement, as we know it today, didn't really get started until the early seventies. I've always logged it's birth year as 1972 when William Ruckelshaus banned DDT, but that's another story entirely. Maybe if this unfortunate accident had happened 10 years later we would still be talking about it the way we talk about chernobyl. Fortuanately, though, and unlike chernobyl there were no direct fatalities from the Rocky Flats accident.
10 years or so after the accident Ralph Nader was delighting audiences with a little routine where he would hold up a pencil. He would then implore the audience to imagine the little portion of graphite that protrudes from the end of the pencil's cylindrical
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
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bassackwards
- Commander
- Posts: 338
- Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 11:27 am
- Location: Southern California
RE:Windmills!!
Holly crap Littleriver!!! Go buy a puzzle for god's sakes....
Be part of the problem or part of the solution....period. Quit throwing out "facts" to try and scare people. All I hear out of you is what everyone else is doing wrong. What's YOUR plan??? Didn't think so.
Go out and enjoy your childhood hiking grounds before they're all windmill farms :thumright
Be part of the problem or part of the solution....period. Quit throwing out "facts" to try and scare people. All I hear out of you is what everyone else is doing wrong. What's YOUR plan??? Didn't think so.
Go out and enjoy your childhood hiking grounds before they're all windmill farms :thumright
God Bless our brave men and women fighting to preserve our way of life!!!
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littleriver
- Commander
- Posts: 317
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:24 pm
- Location: Ethel, WA
- Contact:
RE:Windmills!!
Now just exactly what is the problem with "facts" bassackwards?????
And why would I want to purchase a puzzle when I've already solved this really great one called our national energy policy??
If you have an alternative solution it would be fun to discuss it, but you haven't really offered much in the way of information in any of your posts. At least Mr. Magler did a very nice job of presenting his views on the subject. He did it with eloquence and without malice of forethought and I thought our conversation to be very interesting. I don't think we agree on how to deal with the problem but it was a very nice discussion. Many of the other participants also had interesting and informative points of view on the subject and, even though I didn't respond to them all, I enjoyed reading them. One of the reasons I like discussing these kinds of issues on these kinds of forums is that there is a very diverse pool of opinion to draw from. When you go to a more subject specific forum you end up discussing the subject with a bunch of people who agree with. There is really nothing more boring than rehashing a bunch of policy stuff over and over and over again with a bunch of people who you know already agree with you.
I gave you my plan. Open up more regions on U.S. soil for oil and gas exploration in order to increase supply and start building nuclear power plants. But I don't like the idea of putting huge numbers of the plants into Idaho because that means a huge increase in the number of transmission lines (which will have to be built on somebody's happy hunting or happy fishing grounds) to carry the power into California, Oregon, and Washington. It also means higher line losses which means higher energy bills. It would be nice to distribute the plants around the region so more of them are closer to the high population areas where most of the energy is consumed. Reasonably priced energy is the lifeblood of our nation's middle class. Without it membership starts to dwindle very quickly. And I'll repeat again that I think what PSE does (and hence what you do) is important and productive work but it's mostly distribution side productivity not production side productivity. The discussion here is about production not distribution. In their press release some days back PSE noted that their "objective" in regard to alternatives like wind and power is 5%. They didn't say how close they were to achieving it or if it was achievable without going bankrupt. However, they also said one of the reasons they had to sell out to the canadians is that they are short of cash. And I don't think anyone talking about this number really has the faintest idea how many wind farms are going to have to be built to supply 5% of their product. It would be difficult for even me to estimate how many it will take without some reliable "on-line availabiiity" numbers for the various farms but it's going to take a lot and if they are truly interested in achieving it we are going to lose a lot more wild recreational land than what we have in the colockum.
So let's start with your plan and why you would do things that way.
And why would I want to purchase a puzzle when I've already solved this really great one called our national energy policy??
If you have an alternative solution it would be fun to discuss it, but you haven't really offered much in the way of information in any of your posts. At least Mr. Magler did a very nice job of presenting his views on the subject. He did it with eloquence and without malice of forethought and I thought our conversation to be very interesting. I don't think we agree on how to deal with the problem but it was a very nice discussion. Many of the other participants also had interesting and informative points of view on the subject and, even though I didn't respond to them all, I enjoyed reading them. One of the reasons I like discussing these kinds of issues on these kinds of forums is that there is a very diverse pool of opinion to draw from. When you go to a more subject specific forum you end up discussing the subject with a bunch of people who agree with. There is really nothing more boring than rehashing a bunch of policy stuff over and over and over again with a bunch of people who you know already agree with you.
I gave you my plan. Open up more regions on U.S. soil for oil and gas exploration in order to increase supply and start building nuclear power plants. But I don't like the idea of putting huge numbers of the plants into Idaho because that means a huge increase in the number of transmission lines (which will have to be built on somebody's happy hunting or happy fishing grounds) to carry the power into California, Oregon, and Washington. It also means higher line losses which means higher energy bills. It would be nice to distribute the plants around the region so more of them are closer to the high population areas where most of the energy is consumed. Reasonably priced energy is the lifeblood of our nation's middle class. Without it membership starts to dwindle very quickly. And I'll repeat again that I think what PSE does (and hence what you do) is important and productive work but it's mostly distribution side productivity not production side productivity. The discussion here is about production not distribution. In their press release some days back PSE noted that their "objective" in regard to alternatives like wind and power is 5%. They didn't say how close they were to achieving it or if it was achievable without going bankrupt. However, they also said one of the reasons they had to sell out to the canadians is that they are short of cash. And I don't think anyone talking about this number really has the faintest idea how many wind farms are going to have to be built to supply 5% of their product. It would be difficult for even me to estimate how many it will take without some reliable "on-line availabiiity" numbers for the various farms but it's going to take a lot and if they are truly interested in achieving it we are going to lose a lot more wild recreational land than what we have in the colockum.
So let's start with your plan and why you would do things that way.
Fish doesn't smell "fishy" because it's fish. Fish smells "fishy" when it's rotten.
RE:Windmills!!
You really think you've solved our national energy policy?
Don't chase reports...Be the report others chase....
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bassackwards
- Commander
- Posts: 338
- Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 11:27 am
- Location: Southern California
RE:Windmills!!
"open up more regions on U.S. soil for oil and gas exploration in order to increase supply and start building nuclear power plants".... that's your plan?????littleriver wrote:Now just exactly what is the problem with "facts" bassackwards?????
And why would I want to purchase a puzzle when I've already solved this really great one called our national energy policy??
If you have an alternative solution it would be fun to discuss it, but you haven't really offered much in the way of information in any of your posts. At least Mr. Magler did a very nice job of presenting his views on the subject. He did it with eloquence and without malice of forethought and I thought our conversation to be very interesting. I don't think we agree on how to deal with the problem but it was a very nice discussion. Many of the other participants also had interesting and informative points of view on the subject and, even though I didn't respond to them all, I enjoyed reading them. One of the reasons I like discussing these kinds of issues on these kinds of forums is that there is a very diverse pool of opinion to draw from. When you go to a more subject specific forum you end up discussing the subject with a bunch of people who agree with. There is really nothing more boring than rehashing a bunch of policy stuff over and over and over again with a bunch of people who you know already agree with you.
I gave you my plan. Open up more regions on U.S. soil for oil and gas exploration in order to increase supply and start building nuclear power plants. But I don't like the idea of putting huge numbers of the plants into Idaho because that means a huge increase in the number of transmission lines (which will have to be built on somebody's happy hunting or happy fishing grounds) to carry the power into California, Oregon, and Washington. It also means higher line losses which means higher energy bills. It would be nice to distribute the plants around the region so more of them are closer to the high population areas where most of the energy is consumed. Reasonably priced energy is the lifeblood of our nation's middle class. Without it membership starts to dwindle very quickly. And I'll repeat again that I think what PSE does (and hence what you do) is important and productive work but it's mostly distribution side productivity not production side productivity. The discussion here is about production not distribution. In their press release some days back PSE noted that their "objective" in regard to alternatives like wind and power is 5%. They didn't say how close they were to achieving it or if it was achievable without going bankrupt. However, they also said one of the reasons they had to sell out to the canadians is that they are short of cash. And I don't think anyone talking about this number really has the faintest idea how many wind farms are going to have to be built to supply 5% of their product. It would be difficult for even me to estimate how many it will take without some reliable "on-line availabiiity" numbers for the various farms but it's going to take a lot and if they are truly interested in achieving it we are going to lose a lot more wild recreational land than what we have in the colockum.
So let's start with your plan and why you would do things that way.
So in other words, don't build renewable energy sites in MY backyard...do it in someone elses?? Interesting. I'm starting to get the gist of this now. So..."oil and gas exploration" isn't gonna have an impact on the environment?? I bet it would if it were built on your hunting ground. See where I'm going with this. I'm not trying to be jerk, believe it or not, I just don't see the argument or discussion here.
The windfarms didn't just go up overnight. I'm sorry your hunting grounds were impacted. I'm not in favor of mowing down our natural habitat either, I just think we (you) need to think outside the box a little bit. Maybe you and I can agree to disagree. Until we can start producing energy on the toilet (better way of putting it) we need to explore renewable energy options (i.e. windmill farms, hydro electricity, etc.).
Is that better? Like I've said in past responses...I'm not going to get in a chess match of words with you. You obviously have done your homework on these issues. I appreciate the fact that you care about our environment, I don't agree with your delivery tactics (that's the part we agree to disagree on).
Got a fishing question????
Last edited by Anonymous on Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
God Bless our brave men and women fighting to preserve our way of life!!!