Politics & The War (----Not Very G Rated-----)

[A9]

In this situation the only way to gain a state of capitulation may be to simply start conquering islamic nations (we've already invaded and occupied 2 of them) and gradually convert everyone to christianity.

Believe it or not, France will be a majority muslim in 25 years with current birth rates and if immigration stopped...

Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe.

A little off topic, but an interesting fact nonetheless...Religion classes teach (more so bring up, not really teach) that kinda stuff that public K-12 school never did for me...

[Marc Martyn]

In order to win this battle we are going to need to force islamo-fascist leadership to "capitulate". That's the only thing I know for sure and the only point on which I will never compromise because this (based on thousands of years of human experience with war) is simply what has to be done to get this war over with and to return to what we tend to view as a state of peace.

It is the muslims of the world that must do this. We or any other Christian nation cannot do it. The majority of the muslims in the world are not fascists. Any outside nation attempting to accomplish this will be viewed as conquerers which will lead to more resistance. The muslim world community must group together and eradicate the fascists of their religion.
Religious wars between sects are never won.

[Drewp]

LR, I'm all for using history's examples as a means for coming up with present day solutions, but I don't think that conquering nations and forcing religion on them has ever really worked out very well. To me, that would just be repeating one of history's mistakes. I guess that depends on who's side you are on, but some of the largest atrocities have been carried out in the name of religion, especially Christianity. The root of the problem IS religion. Imposing a new religion on someone who is already devout in a religion of their own doesn't work on a large scale unless you are willing to kill off those who resist, and then how is that any different from what the militant extremists are doing? Sure there might be a few who would be down to convert, but for the most part you will be met with extreme resistance.

Religion is something that humans created (that's probably going to open a whole new can o' worms) to deal with the fact that no one knows what happens after we die. A scary thought right? The muslim answer to what happens after death is a perfect example of this being created my humans, almost to the point of comedy. Christianity is much more rule and order based, to not only give people the peace of mind that heaven awaits you after death, but also that to get there, you have to stay in line during life (unless of course you repent, and then your good).

Sam brought up an interesting point in that his Religion classes brought more stuff to his attention than everything in K-12 did. Worldly education, including the different religions of the world, I see as being a plausible solution to the Islamic militants, though our right-winged not-so-separated-church-and-state administration probably wouldn't agree with that. I don't even want to take a guess at how many different religions exist in the world, but to me it's painfully obvious that none of them are the right one. Some are more tolerant than others, some are more extreme, some are downright looney (scientology comes to mind), but they all serve the same purpose, which is just that, to give humans a purpose.

There's no way that any of these hardcore militants will convert to anything. The solution is to educate the youth and those willing to learn before their minds can be tainted and/or controlled by the extremists who live intermixed in those societies. Slowly the extremist way of thought would be phased out. This might be extremely difficult and take a long time, but going around conquering contries never works in the long run. Look what happened to the Romans, it's scary how often the US is compared to that civilization.

One final note: I am not trying to blast on anyone's religion (except maybe Scientology, come on), I used to go to church and just found that it wasn't for me. Lots of history reading solidified this fact. I do believe in a God. There are many good things that exist in religion and I'm aware of what it is able to in respect to good. In the church I used to belong to, we raised enough money to pay for a trip to go to South Carolina and build houses for the poor through the Habitat for Humanity program, and I can't think of anything wrong with that. I take comfort in the fact that we are all free to be whatever it is we want to be. But I don't like the idea of forcing things/ideals upon others, particularly as a solution to the Mess-o-potamia.

[A9]

One final note: I am not trying to blast on anyone's religion (except maybe Scientology, come on),

That's funny...

You make good points about educating others about other religions and being tolerant about them. I think that education, not just in the United states, all over the world, would go a long ways to provide tolerance and shed some peace in the light of the religious fighting that is going on in our world.

If anyone wants to read a very "interesting" article on Islam, here's a pretty intense one...

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200 ... ity_islam/

[Mr. Magler]

Well said, DrewP and Marc. You guys are spot on.

It shocks me that so many people truly believe that everyone should follow the same religion. Convert all Muslims to Christianity? Please tell me that was a joke, littleriver. A wouldn't expect an intelligent person with an appreciation of world history like yourself would really think that was a good idea. The scary thing is that I've heard that solution before, and it terrifies me to think there are people in this great country who think that way.

It's not Muslims that want to harm anyone. Just like Christianity, real Muslims believe in loving your neighbor, not harming them. It's the extremist wackos that have nothing to do with the true teachings of the Koran that change the religious teachings in attempt to justify their violent acts. These extremists create their own religion to use for recruiting young, impressionable, and uneducated children to fight their enemies for them. That's why education is such a good solution. Educated people are more likely to be able to think for themsleves rather than blindly follow some extremist that promises them glory and money.

Trying to convert the entire middle east to Christianity sure sounds a lot like the Spanish Inquisition to me. Which is funny if you're watching Mel Brooks' History of The World, but not so funny if you're outside of Hollywood.

[A9]

It's not Muslims that want to harm anyone. Just like Christianity, real Muslims believe in loving your neighbor, not harming them. It's the extremist wackos that have nothing to do with the true teachings of the Koran that change the religious teachings in attempt to justify their violent acts. These extremists create their own religion to use for recruiting young, impressionable, and uneducated children to fight their enemies for them. That's why education is such a good solution. Educated people are more likely to be able to think for themsleves rather than blindly follow some extremist that promises them glory and money.

Magler. I agree with you 100%...If you had the time, I think you should read the article that I provided two threads up. I tend to take your side, but the guy who wrote the article takes the extremely opposite side and it's quite interesting....

[littleriver]

Wow. Some great responses since my last post. I had to read them twice and pinch myself. I do believe that I'm finally engaged in an intelligent discussion about the "War on Terror". You all need to understand that I spend a lot of time debating this issue on many, many blogs and forums and this is the only place where I've gotten to this level of discussion. At the other places it's just them trashing the troops and "Amerika" and me trying to trash them back.

I actually agree with all of you to some extent. But it should be understand that my comment about "converting them to christianity" was more of a "frustration" thing rather than what I consider a real solution.

I think marc has conceptualized the issue the best and what he posted, in my view, expresses the direction of our current administration. GW has established an "ideology" for this war and it's simply that "every human yearns for freedom".

What GW is saying with that comment is that "most muslims aren't islamo-fascists". What he's saying is that our objective, politically and militarily, will be to create an environment that will allow the 'rational' muslims to take charge and change the religion and send the islamo-fascists into hibernation. I really hope that will work but from an historical perspective I'm not sure how we get to the point where the islamo-fascists capitulate. My guess is that "islamo-fascists" comprise about 5% or less of all muslims. My greatest concern is that the mechanism of capitulation is still something that I still can't define. I just know that it has to happen for the war to be over. When you are the aggressor (such as the colonists were with Mexico in the 1840s and 1850s) you don't need a formal agreement of capitulation (the Mexican parliament, in fact, never ratified our current borders) but when you are the target of an aggressor, such as we are with the islamo fascists, you must force some kind of formal capitulation or continue to be preyed upon. In the late 16th century the Spanish royality was getting a little miffed about the constant piracy by English pirates (and I'm actually a descendent of one of those pirates) on their galleons that were bringing riches from South America. So they build a great armada and sailed up into the english channel to teach the profiteers a lesson.
Unfortunately, things did not go their way and the english ended up taking control of the seas and building a huge empire. Hopefully this isn't what happens to us with the islamo-fascists.


Things seem to be looking better in iraq now but the idiots have lots of money and lots of time. They may just be doing the rope a dope waiting for the '08 elections to pass and then they'll start a new offensive. I don't know. The big thing we need to do is shut down, or change the cirriculum, at the madrases. The madrases are where the young men are indoctrinated in the ideology and when they graduate they are nothing but time bombs ready to go off at the direction of the nearest radical imam.

In my mind, and in light of my knowledge (incomplete as it is) of human history I'm just trying to get to the point where I can see a real end to the conflict. The sooner it's over the better I will like it. I'm getting old. I don't want to spend the autumn of my years reading about soldiers fighting in battles that really don't need to be fought and feeling somehow responsible in some way for putting them in harm's way. I would much rather spend them seeking out and enjoying new and interesting fishing opportunities.

[Marc Martyn]

GW has established an "ideology" for this war and it's simply that "every human yearns for freedom".
What GW is saying with that comment is that "most muslims aren't islamo-fascists". What he's saying is that our objective, politically and militarily, will be to create an environment that will allow the 'rational' muslims to take charge and change the religion and send the islamo-fascists into hibernation. I really hope that will work but from an historical perspective I'm not sure how we get to the point where the islamo-fascists capitulate.

Well, they could start with the simple concept of "Blockwatch"
Communities around the nation, faced with high crime in their own neighborhoods have taken back their individual neighborhoods, house by house,by grouping together, being vigilant and reporting crime when they see it. This is what I mean by the muslims grouping together.
We have neighborhood "Cop Shops" that are manned and operated by the neighborhood members and monitored by the law enforcement agencies. These have proven to be very effective in lowering the crime houses in the community. When strong enforcement is needed, then the police step in. The community is basically "cleaning it's own house."

"What he's saying is that our objective, politically and militarily, will be to create an environment that will allow the 'rational' muslims to take charge and change the religion and send the islamo-fascists into hibernation."

There is nothing wrong with the religion, therefore you do not have to change it. It is the interpretation of the religion that needs to be addressed. And once again, it is the responsibility of its followers to address this. Any other religion cannot change this.
Misinterpretation of a religion can be seen in all religious sects. Remember "Jonestown"? (for those not old enough to know, google "Jonestown') This group of people were Christian followers. Jim Jones was a light-weight. Binladen is a master at it.

Using outside military force in a foreign country to "crush" a radical religious faction does not work. The solution must come from inside the religion itself.