Chironomids, chironomids, and more chironomids...

[leahcim_dahc]

Went out to a local lake that I have had decent luck on. This time being different because I brought the fly rod. Being new to the sport of fly fishing, I did what I thought should be right. Walked over to the launch, then along the dock and scooped up samples with my net. First couple attempts yielded a bit of moss, bits of twigs and cottonwood tree tidbits.

A few more attempts brought up some interesting critters, vegetation, and more cottonwood tree tidbits. The critters and exoskeletons I found were quite small. In the bottom of the net, a few were wiggling like crazy. After searching the net and googling until carpal tunnel set in, I think the wiggly creatures were some sort of chironomid...but what exactly, I am not sure.

These little guys were no longer than about 1/4" and very pale in color. While I watched a few motor about the water, their movements were quite sporadic. I also found a small type of winged insect struggling somewhat with what appeared the same skeletal remains attached to its legs. Whether this thing fell in the water and tripped over the shell, not sure...could have possibly been the end result of the critter floating to the surface and hatching.

Of all the pictures I have seen, this insect looks nothing like what has been shown to come from those types of larvae or pupae.

The insect in question was some sort of fly, but about 1/4" in length...1/32"-1/16" in width and a couple shades of tan, with white wings. I have yet to come across anything on the net...but if anyone has some sort of clue what it could possibly be, I be interested to hear your thoughts. I am sure a snapshot would be rather handy...but didn't think that far ahead this morning. I'll definitely start taking my camera more often to get photos. Thanks!


Chad

[Anglinarcher]

If you could get pictures next time, perhaps someone could identify the critters. If the "worms" were pale, they probably were not "blood worms aka Chironomids".

One thing I have noticed over the last million years of fishing (at least it seems that way some times), is that there are a lot more critters in the water than what we normally identify or try to match. That does not mean that they are not worthy of matching while fishing.

Trust me, I doubt very very very much that you can find any reference to "Chironomids" in any fishing literature 15 years ago, and for sure 25 years ago, but today they are the buzz word. Times change, and maybe, just maybe, you will identify the next critter worthy of our attention.

[raffensg64]

One of my partners is prone to occasionally pumping the stomach of a larger trout. This is very helpful in identifying hatches, chironimid colors, etc. On many occasions we get critters we've never seen before. I'm guessing there are literally hundreds of different nymphs and chronie pupa in our lakes, possibly thousands.

[chironomid_guy]

Im thinkin that I will wait for some photos. They could be mayfly larvae as well??? Chironomids are available to trout 24/7/365, and therefore a very important part of their diet.

IE:










Additionally, heres some good shots of where Chronnys live (on the bottom of lakes):


and heres whats inside those lil tubes ("blood worms"), as larvae:



TTFN

[leahcim_dahc]

If you could get pictures next time, perhaps someone could identify the critters. If the "worms" were pale, they probably were not "blood worms aka Chironomids".

One thing I have noticed over the last million years of fishing (at least it seems that way some times), is that there are a lot more critters in the water than what we normally identify or try to match. That does not mean that they are not worthy of matching while fishing.

Trust me, I doubt very very very much that you can find any reference to "Chironomids" in any fishing literature 15 years ago, and for sure 25 years ago, but today they are the buzz word. Times change, and maybe, just maybe, you will identify the next critter worthy of our attention.

About 100% of what I've posted in the Fly Fishing forum is new to me. I've only been fly fishing consistently for less than a week. Identifying the critters in the water is just another aspect which I want to learn. The bugs I find may not be chironomids, they may be...I don't know. The only reason I asked was because I have caught fish from these lakes and found bugs in their stomachs. Not knowing what they were, I researched and discovered they were chironomid larvae.

I wasn't having much luck yesterday at fishing and thought maybe I need to check and see what's in the water and see if I'm on the right track. That's when I found the, for arguments sake, small aquatic invertebrate using a rapid twitching motion to propel itself from point A to point B. The size was relatively small...I'd say anywhere from a size #18 and smaller. And of course, it may have been one of those thousands of critters living in the water that the fish will ignore. I was more interested in the educational aspect.

If I start tossing around buzzwords...I assure you, I am completely unaware they are buzzwords, and I am not trying to use them just to be cool. It's purely coincidental, I'm new and just trying to learn.

[chironomid_guy]

Just trying to help fill in the blanks Leachin. I thought the pics might help you? They are a few from tying lessons that I use as visual aids. Chironny's typically have the same shape (as in the photos), and range from size 22's (or smaller) up to big "bombers" (size8's). Their "shucks' that they leave on the water after they emerge are transparent, but the ribbing or abdomen sections should be appearant. Adult Chironnys dont have a sucker or needle mouth part (proboscus). If there were lots of flying adults around, most people thing their mosquitoes (but they dont bite after they land on you). Im not trying to use big words to impress anyone, just trying to use proper terms to help identify. Hope this helps?

cheers

[zen leecher aka Bill W]

Chiro guy,

The first picture you posted shows why the "chromie" (a silver mylar bodied chronie) works so well during all color variation chironomid emergences.

[leahcim_dahc]

...

I appreciate the help from everyone tremendously! It is very much appreciated. I just wanted to clarify what I meant so no one thought I'm just trying to use big words without a clue just to look cool. I will better use the proper nomenclature/terminology once I learn it. My apologies if my last post seemed to be harsh, that was not my intention.

The pictures you posted are very helpful. I have seen the reddish-brown larvae in the bellies of quite a few fish. The image labeled as diptera3.jpg most closely resembles the one I saw. I'm going out tomorrow morning, I'll ensure my camera makes it's way into my bag tonight and will post some photos of it. Thanks!


Chad

[leahcim_dahc]

Just finished reading an article by Brian Chan with regards to fishing chironomids. Don't know how old the article is...but it was definitely an interesting read.

http://www.flyfishersrepublic.com/tacti ... d-tactics/


Chad

[Marc Martyn]

If you could get pictures next time, perhaps someone could identify the critters. If the "worms" were pale, they probably were not "blood worms aka Chironomids".

One thing I have noticed over the last million years of fishing (at least it seems that way some times), is that there are a lot more critters in the water than what we normally identify or try to match. That does not mean that they are not worthy of matching while fishing.

Trust me, I doubt very very very much that you can find any reference to "Chironomids" in any fishing literature 15 years ago, and for sure 25 years ago, but today they are the buzz word. Times change, and maybe, just maybe, you will identify the next critter worthy of our attention.

I don't know what you have been reading for the last 25 years, but this is not new at all. In Ernest Schwieberts NYMPHS, 1977, he covers chironomids in great detail.

And, Angler, who are you to say what is "worthy of our attention":thumbdown

Leahcim_dahc, your questions are always welcome. Keep them coming.:thumright

[kutthroatkilla]

If you could get pictures next time, perhaps someone could identify the critters. If the "worms" were pale, they probably were not "blood worms aka Chironomids".

Trust me, I doubt very very very much that you can find any reference to "Chironomids" in any fishing literature 15 years ago, and for sure 25 years ago, but today they are the buzz word. Times change, and maybe, just maybe, you will identify the next critter worthy of our attention.

I don't want to sound like an arse here, and I don't know you, but anglinarcher you certainly come across very hostile, or maybe the better word is "know-it-all" in your approach. leahcim_dachc I personally love your posts, questions, and everything else involved. In fact, so much so that it'd be fun to fish with you on a local lake or river with the fly rods. Heck, I'm a beginner/intermediate as well, and could learn a thing or two. In my experience, people who say "trust me" are not understanding the perspective of the folks who might distrust them](*,) :jocolor:

leahcim_dachc, leaving the camera behind is also standard for me too, albiet way too many times...:pale:

KTK

[fishing collector]

Try this website.....It may answer some questions... http://www.troutnut.com/ .

[Marc Martyn]

About 100% of what I've posted in the Fly Fishing forum is new to me. I've only been fly fishing consistently for less than a week. Identifying the critters in the water is just another aspect which I want to learn. The bugs I find may not be chironomids, they may be...I don't know. The only reason I asked was because I have caught fish from these lakes and found bugs in their stomachs. Not knowing what they were, I researched and discovered they were chironomid larvae.

I wasn't having much luck yesterday at fishing and thought maybe I need to check and see what's in the water and see if I'm on the right track. That's when I found the, for arguments sake, small aquatic invertebrate using a rapid twitching motion to propel itself from point A to point B. The size was relatively small...I'd say anywhere from a size #18 and smaller. And of course, it may have been one of those thousands of critters living in the water that the fish will ignore. I was more interested in the educational aspect.

leahcim_dahc,

You are on the right track all the way. Being aware of what is in the water and in the air is the first step in successful fly fishing. Today it is much easier to research entomology with the internet. When I began fly fishing, it was a trip to the library out at Whitworth College to search through the entomology books to identify insects.

I would suggest carrying small specimen bottles and take them home with you to look at while searching the internet. If you can't find information on it or can't identify it, take it to a fly shop and they will be very willing to help you. You can also post pictures on the forum. There are many guys on the site that know entomology quite well.

I have been fly fishing for 40 years now and each time I go out on the lake or stream I learn something new. Don't be hesitant to ask any questions. That is how a person learns.

This forum is specifically designed to discuss subjects, ask questions and help out people who want to learn more about fishing. Thank you for your question. Post some pictures when you go out and do some research again. I would like to see them.

[chironomid_guy]

Well said Marc..........

[leahcim_dahc]

...

Thanks, Marc...I am sure I'll have numerous questions. :-)

In fact, so much so that it'd be fun to fish with you on a local lake or river with the fly rods. Heck, I'm a beginner/intermediate as well, and could learn a thing or two.

I doubt I could teach anything you don't already know. I'm always up for a good time fishing...feel free to drop me a PM anytime and we'll see if we can hook up sometime. Heck, anyone for that matter...I'll fish with whoever wants to fish. :-D


Chad

[Anglinarcher]

If you could get pictures next time, perhaps someone could identify the critters. If the "worms" were pale, they probably were not "blood worms aka Chironomids".

One thing I have noticed over the last million years of fishing (at least it seems that way some times), is that there are a lot more critters in the water than what we normally identify or try to match. That does not mean that they are not worthy of matching while fishing.

Trust me, I doubt very very very much that you can find any reference to "Chironomids" in any fishing literature 15 years ago, and for sure 25 years ago, but today they are the buzz word. Times change, and maybe, just maybe, you will identify the next critter worthy of our attention.

I don't know what you have been reading for the last 25 years, but this is not new at all. In Ernest Schwieberts NYMPHS, 1977, he covers chironomids in great detail.

And, Angler, who are you to say what is "worthy of our attention":thumbdown

Leahcim_dahc, your questions are always welcome. Keep them coming.:thumright

Wow, I read, then re-read my response, and I don't see where you are coming from Marc. First, I indicated that there are a lot more critters in the water then what we normally identify or try to match, that does NOT mean they are not worthy of matching....... Personally, I don't care what they are called, or who found them first, I want to copy what the fish want.

I also said that maybe he would identify the next critter worry of our attention. I did not say that he had not already found it, but that we should always be looking out for the next breakthrough. I sure did not say that I would determine if he found that next worthy bug.

I guess I will need to review Ernest Schwieberts Nymphs. Let's see, if he was the first definitive writer on this, this means that it was 30 years, not 25. OK, I'll give that to you. Nevertheless, if you think that all important bugs have been identified, than you must be bored with fly fishing by now.

Leahcim, did you think I was discouraging your questions? If so, and I sure did not mean it, then I am sorry. Now, Marc, perhaps you and I still have some unsolved issues between us. PM me if we do. kutthroatkilla, you too.

[leahcim_dahc]

Leahcim, did you think I was discouraging your questions?

At first it was a bit hard to determine what exactly you meant by, "worthy of our attention" or using the term chironomid as just tossing about the latest buzzword trying to look cool and like I knew what I was talking about. I think it could have been misconstrued a couple different ways. Whether it come across as an "elitist turn the nose up because Chad doesn't know jack about entomolgy and his discoveries aren't worth the time of seasoned fly fsherman" sort of way, or my question somehow didn't meet standards of the Fly Fishing forum veterans as a collective.

I originally thought the latter, hence my reply regarding my current state of fly fishing knowledge. I wanted to clarify I wasn't just trying to use terms that were beyond my comprehension just to be "one of the guys". I think it is sometimes hard to determine what someone is trying to say, simply because of being on opposite ends of the ethernet cable and most conversations are not made face to face. Sometimes I am a blockhead and can't read between the lines and mull over conversations for quite a bit time trying to figure out whether I pissed someone off or I said the right/wrong things.

For the most part, it takes quite a bit to discourage me about anything. I thank you for your time regarding my question. I will have many, many more and look forward to lengthy conversations regarding fly fishing with everyone. An entire new world awaits, ready for me to poke sticks at it. Thanks!


Chad

[kutthroatkilla]

If you could get pictures next time, perhaps someone could identify the critters.

One thing I have noticed over the last million years of fishing

Trust me, I doubt very very very much that you can find any reference to "Chironomids" in any fishing literature 15 years ago.

Times change, and maybe, just maybe, you will identify the next critter worthy of our attention.

Anglinarcher your implications are a bit off. You come across as both uncouth and indecorous. You say "trust me" and your tone is almost, well, unapproachable. To what authority can you say "trust me]leahcim_dahc[/b]. That’s my 2 cents and I hope leach_dahc stays around. My issue is with your overall deportment concerning this specific reply. The member had mentioned forgetting the camera in a prior post in the same thread, thus no need to say, “If you could get pictures next time, perhaps someone could identify the critters.” leahcim_dahc just said in the post above yours, “I am sure a snapshot would be rather handy...but didn't think that far ahead this morning. I'll definitely start taking my camera more often to get photos.” Get your facts straight before you tell us “what’s worthy of our attention.” PM'ing you would be a waste of my time anyways, so peace out!. o:)

[Anglinarcher]

If you could get pictures next time, perhaps someone could identify the critters.

One thing I have noticed over the last million years of fishing

Trust me, I doubt very very very much that you can find any reference to "Chironomids" in any fishing literature 15 years ago.

Times change, and maybe, just maybe, you will identify the next critter worthy of our attention.

Anglinarcher your implications are a bit off. You come across as both uncouth and indecorous. You say "trust me" and your tone is almost, well, unapproachable. To what authority can you say "trust me]leahcim_dahc[/b]. That’s my 2 cents and I hope leach_dahc stays around. My issue is with your overall deportment concerning this specific reply. The member had mentioned forgetting the camera in a prior post in the same thread, thus no need to say, “If you could get pictures next time, perhaps someone could identify the critters.” leahcim_dahc just said in the post above yours, “I am sure a snapshot would be rather handy...but didn't think that far ahead this morning. I'll definitely start taking my camera more often to get photos.” Get your facts straight before you tell us “what’s worthy of our attention.” PM'ing you would be a waste of my time anyways, so peace out!. o:)

If you have a problem with the term "trust me", than you must be having a fit with the implications of the Democrats running for president right now, and I suppose all of the other parties as well.

What I usually see is that people that accuse others of being a, what did you call me, a "know-it-all", usually are not intimidated by how much the "know-it-all" knows, but are instead are frustrated by how much the accuser does not.

I know you are young, and to use an old phrase, you have come across many times, in my humble opinion, as the Pot calling the Kettle black yourself. I have given you slack in the past, and I forgive you so I will do it in the future again. I really think you would do better, and I would come across less "hostile", if we took this off line in PMs.

Still, to get things back on the right track, if I offended you by not dummying my responses down, then I apologize, to you and to all.


Peace out, WOW man, let me take another toke and I'll get back to you.

[Anglinarcher]

Leahcim, did you think I was discouraging your questions?

At first it was a bit hard to determine what exactly you meant by, "worthy of our attention" or using the term chironomid as just tossing about the latest buzzword trying to look cool and like I knew what I was talking about. I think it could have been misconstrued a couple different ways. Whether it come across as an "elitist turn the nose up because Chad doesn't know jack about entomolgy and his discoveries aren't worth the time of seasoned fly fsherman" sort of way, or my question somehow didn't meet standards of the Fly Fishing forum veterans as a collective.

I originally thought the latter, hence my reply regarding my current state of fly fishing knowledge. I wanted to clarify I wasn't just trying to use terms that were beyond my comprehension just to be "one of the guys". I think it is sometimes hard to determine what someone is trying to say, simply because of being on opposite ends of the ethernet cable and most conversations are not made face to face. Sometimes I am a blockhead and can't read between the lines and mull over conversations for quite a bit time trying to figure out whether I pissed someone off or I said the right/wrong things.

For the most part, it takes quite a bit to discourage me about anything. I thank you for your time regarding my question. I will have many, many more and look forward to lengthy conversations regarding fly fishing with everyone. An entire new world awaits, ready for me to poke sticks at it. Thanks!


Chad

Sometimes I get a little stilted when I write. I spend all day inspecting, scoping, bidding, or running Government work, and if I have not taken sufficient time to "chill out", I still sound like a Philadelphia Lawyer. I also sometimes forget the frame of reference and the age of some of the people I write to on the INTERNET. I intended no disrespect to you, and was in fact suggesting that you might be on to something that we should be paying attention to, or in other words, "worthy of our attention".

Buzz words should have been replace with, perhaps, the IN THING or the current Discovery. When I was new to the sport, the Buzz was wet tip lines (sink tip now). Yes, they have caught on, I use them a lot. I also used Chironomids in the late 60's, a pattern called the red barber pole, but we did not know about Blood Worms or Chironomids, we just knew what we were seeing in our fish.

Be a little careful in the Fly Fishing world, if you thought that I was coming off a little elitists. Fly Fishermen are in general very much elitists. I guided for a summer on Silver Creek in Idaho when I was only 16 (long story and I won't go into it), but the biggest problem I had was that the paying clients expected wine and cheese for lunch, not catching fish. Keep up your thick skin and don't let them discourage you; you, and those like you, are the future of the sport.

This site is lucky to have someone like Marc, someone that is quite knowledgeable and yet not an elitists at all. We don't always agree, as you can see above, but I still respect his knowledge.

AND MOST IMPORTANT, KEEP THOSE QUESTIONS COMING. THEY TEACH YOU, THEY TEACH OTHERS, AND THE TEACHER LEARNS ALMOST AS MUCH AS THE STUDENT.

And PS, just because you forgot your camera last time does not mean you will forget it next time. You know what they say, a picture IS worth a thousand words. I bet you will see those critters, Chironomids or not, again.